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Meeting 2010-02-27

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The 2010-02-27 meeting was held on Saturday, February 27th at 15:00 UTC on IRC.

Present were:

Minutes

Project management

  • (Unstable) Release - how?
    • octo has a release tarball that needs testing.
    • Tasks to be done (by who?):
      • Upload tarball to file server (BerliOS? Google? Lethargik?)
        People listed at http://developer.berlios.de/projects/supertux/ as "admins" can upload to BerliOS.
        All previous releases are hosted at BerliOS. I think it makes sense to keep them there. - sik0fewl 19:28, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
      • Update download page http://supertux.lethargik.org/download.html
        Everybody with SVN access by editing trunk/htdocs/
        I can do this, but so can any developer. - sik0fewl 19:28, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
      • Announce on freshmeat.net (Project there by AnMaster?)
        AnMaster and WolfgangB
      • Announce on http://happypenguin.org/
        Can be done by everybody
      • Update bug tracker
        → octo'll do it
      • Binary packages?
        • According to WolfgangB, SuperTux did provide Linux autopackage and Windows binaries along the source tarballs.
        • Previous Windows binaries were built by "Delta" / "Sommer"
  • Last chance to change Versioning scheme
    • Nobody felt it necessary to discuss this again. Mathnerd314, who put it on the agenda, wasn't there anymore.
  • Next meeting date and time - every Saturday at 15:00 UTC?

Gameplay

  • Feedback for the Yeti level.
    • Postponed (again) because Mathnerd314 wasn't there.
  • New tiles from grumbel - which are useful?
    • grumbel: nightcave is good, the rest is crap
    • grumbel: Make "Crystal cave" into a background tileset
    • grumbel: the snowmountain stuff needs to be repainted
    • WolfgangB, octo: If tilesets should be removed, do this ASAP (before they are used in levels by 3rd parties)
    • octo will make Crystal cave tiles non-solid so they cannot be used as interactive tiles.
  • Milestone 1-like worldmap - do now or later (which ideas to keep from the new one?)
    • "Now" meaning before the release?
    • octo has a version of the Milestone 1 worldmap in Milestone 2 syntax. Use that or work on the current version?
    • The worldmap has been changed just before the meeting (revision 6419) by Mathnerd314.
    • WolfgangB: in a stable release the worldmap should fit with the levels e.g. some mountains on the map for cave levels
  • Screw the forest? Keep for now? Don't delete ever?
    • Motion: Restore the Milestone 1 worldmap and add the intro and Yeti levels. There will be no passage to/from the Forest and the Forest / World 2 will be moved to contributed levels.
      • In favor: octo, grumbel
      • Opposed: nobody
      • No opinion: AnMaster
    • → Motion passes.
  • New names for badguys. Which to rename and (if applicable) which name to use?:
    AnMaster: in general I prefer the older names there. well, maybe not for "Kamikaze Snowball"
    WolfgangB: if grumbel thinks the badguys need new names do it
    octo: I don't like "Avior" nor "Dex". With the other names I don't have much preference
    grumbel: what we want is good and interesting names. finding them is the hard part
    MMlosh: The only change I agree with is Flying snowball rename. Snowshot is good, "Bouncy" has too strong association to java game shipped with nokia phones
    Avior and Dex are off the stove. Kamikaze Snowball will be renamed to Snowshot. The other names are postponed until later.

Next meeting

Next Saturday, March 6th, at 15:00 UTC?

Log

16:01 < octo> Okay, since Mathnerd314 Has to leave early I'd suggest we start ;)
16:01 < grumbel> Mathnerd314: I am here
16:01 < octo> First point is - again - the new release / development snapshot
16:02 < Mathnerd314> %$#*^ - have to leave now
16:02 < octo> I have created a tarball which lives at http://verplant.org/supertux/files/supertux-0.3.3.tar.bz2
16:02 < octo> It'd be great if I could get some feedback on it, especially regarding the README / WHATSNEW and, of course, if it doesn't buidl
16:02 < octo> +^T
16:02 < octo> Mathnerd314: Crap :(
16:03 < octo> It's possible that there are some unused graphics / sounds in the tarball which *should* be removed if possible - it's currently slightly over 60 MBytes
16:03 < Mathnerd314> let's just say my opinion is "do it" for every point.
16:03 < WolfgangB1> hi
16:03 < octo> Mathnerd314: Hehe ;)
16:04 *** Unnheulu [~ieuan@cpc5-pnth2-0-0-cust800.5-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
16:05 < octo> Other than that I'd like to know who is responsible for:
16:05 < octo> * Uploading the tarball to a final location
16:06 < octo> * Updating the download page of the website
16:06 < octo> * Updating the freshmeat.net record (AnMaster?)
16:06 < octo> * Updating the bug tracker (add the release)
16:06 < octo> I think I can easily do that last point ;)
16:07 < WolfgangB1> isn't  freshmeat updated for stable only?
16:07 < WolfgangB1> don't forget happypenguin
16:08 < octo> Hm, *I* would update freshmeat as often as possible ;)
16:10 < AnMaster> hi there
16:11 *** WolfgangB1 [~wolfgang@88.130.223.150] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
16:11 < AnMaster> octo, currently I'm really busy in real life due to university.
16:11 < octo> Hey AnMaster :)
16:11 < AnMaster> but what was that about freshmeat?
16:11 *** WolfgangB [~wolfgang@88.130.223.150] has joined #supertux
16:12 < octo> AnMaster: I would have announced that release on freshmeat, and the user account that last updated that record looked like it could belong to you ;)
16:12 < AnMaster> hm
16:12 < AnMaster> what release?
16:13 * AnMaster has been completely unable to keep up with supertux recently
16:13 < octo> AnMaster: A new development snapshot, 0.3.3
16:13 < AnMaster> lets see...
16:14 < octo> So nobody knows about download servers?
16:14 < octo> I assume sik0fewl can update the website, right?
16:14 < grumbel> brb
16:14 < AnMaster> download servers where?
16:14 < octo> That's what I want to know. Where should the tarball(s) be uploaded to and who can do that?
16:14 < AnMaster> octo, I have/had ssh access to lethergik if that is what you meant. For user account supertux (under which the website runs) too
16:15 < AnMaster> but I don't think we hosted that
16:15 < AnMaster> didn't we use berlios or sf.net still for it?
16:15 < AnMaster> I don't really remember
16:15 < octo> AnMaster: I think currently the files are on Berlios, but there was talk about possibly host them somewhere else
16:15 < WolfgangB> on berlis the people listed as "project admins" http://developer.berlios.de/projects/supertux/ can add releases
16:15 < AnMaster> octo, about freshmeat update, it looks like WolfgangB have access too
16:15 < WolfgangB> i do?
16:15 < AnMaster> and sommerc, which would be delta iirc
16:16 < AnMaster> WolfgangB, yep http://freshmeat.net/projects/supertux/roles claims so
16:16 < octo> WolfgangB, AnMaster: Thanks
16:16 < AnMaster> WolfgangB, so you can add release on berlios, I can't
16:17 < AnMaster> on sf.net: no clue
16:17 < WolfgangB> ok I found my freshmeat account
16:18 < octo> WolfgangB: So how does updating happypenguin.org work?
16:18 < AnMaster> our mediawiki looks outdated btw. Probably someone should update it. But I really don't remember how. It was rather messy iirc
16:18 < WolfgangB> log in, submit update, wat for admin to aprove
16:19 < AnMaster> you had to diff against a clean copy for local changes, then apply that diff to the new version and fix conflicts
16:19 < AnMaster> and a few more steps iirc
16:19 < AnMaster> well yeah, database stuff too
16:19 < octo> WolfgangB: So anyone can do that?
16:19 < AnMaster> plus any special steps in the release notes
16:19 < WolfgangB> octo: yes
16:20 < octo> WolfgangB: Okay
16:20 < AnMaster> happypenguin.org <-- I don't even have an account there afaik
16:20 < WolfgangB> no gotm?
16:20 < AnMaster> gotm?
16:20 *** zoobox [~zoobox@h85n1fls305o253.telia.com] has left #supertux []
16:20 < AnMaster> (what is that?)
16:21 < WolfgangB> http://www.happypenguin.org/newsitem?id=4455
16:21 < AnMaster> ah yeah
16:21 < AnMaster> game of the month I guess
16:22 < Greeny> who is responsible for the windows build ? ;)
16:23 < octo> Good question
16:23 < WolfgangB> let them compile source ;-)
16:23 < octo> Did SuperTux provide binary packages for previous releases?
16:23 < Greeny> yes
16:23 < WolfgangB> source, linux autopackage, windows binary
16:24 < AnMaster> <Greeny> who is responsible for the windows build ? ;) <-- I'm on exclusively linux since several years
16:24 < AnMaster> well, some freebsd too
16:25 < AnMaster> actually, there is one old old MacOS 9 too
16:25 < AnMaster> (pre-OS X, really old macs. Think one-button)
16:25 < AnMaster> (that one is a first generation ibook in fact)
16:25 < octo> Okay, if anyone remembers who built the Windows binaries let me know..
16:25 < AnMaster> WolfgangB, was the autopackage a x86_64 one?
16:26 < AnMaster> octo, I think delta did
16:26 < AnMaster> not completely sure
16:26 < octo> AnMaster: Oh, that was a name? ;) Okay, I'll put that down
16:26 < AnMaster> octo, delta = sommer iirc in some places
16:26 < octo> AnMaster: Ah
16:26 < AnMaster> octo, I haven't seen him for ages though
16:26 < AnMaster> any idea what became of him?
16:27 < octo> Okay, I don't precisely *need* to discuss the versioning schema again (that's the next point)
16:27 < WolfgangB> AnMaster: IIRC there never was a 64bit Autopackage but the 32 bit version was reported to work
16:27 < AnMaster> ah
16:27 < octo> Does anyone see need for discussing that again?
16:27 < octo> (I think Mathnerd314 put it on the agenda)
16:27 < AnMaster> did it change again or?
16:28 < WolfgangB> no idea? named reveision now or what?
16:28 < AnMaster> (by the way, who have access to change the topic in here?)
16:28 < octo> AnMaster: Mathnerd314 I think, maybe grumbel
16:28 < AnMaster> hm
16:28 < AnMaster> /cs access #supertux list
16:28 < AnMaster> gives
16:28 < AnMaster> CharlieG and grumbel
16:29 < AnMaster> but the flags look messed up...
16:29 < WolfgangB> http://developer.berlios.de/project/showfiles.php?group_id=3467 no 64bit Auptopackage
16:29 *** Auria [~Auria@69-4-213-152.mediom.qc.ca] has joined #supertux
16:29 < AnMaster> according to it grumbel can change the access list flags but not view them (with flags command, never mind that freenode allows viewing them anyway with the access command)
16:30 < octo> WolfgangB: I was recently pushing towards another schema which increased the minor version whenever new stuff was added (or removed)
16:30 < octo> WolfgangB: This would leave room for patch releases
16:30 < octo> WolfgangB: However, I seemed to be the only one seeing a problem with the current schema, so we didn't change anything
16:31 < octo> Let's move to the gameplay points then:
16:31 < octo> grumbel has added some new tiles this week
16:31 < AnMaster> I suggest next version should be log_{e}\(\frac{\pi}{2}\)
16:31 < octo> Nightcave, Crystal cave and, ..., uhm, one more iIrc
16:31 < AnMaster> (that might not pass as valid LaTeX on closer examination)
16:32 < octo> It says in the agenda: "New tiles from grumbel - which are useful?"
16:32 < octo> Any thoughts?
16:32 *** yetanothername [~yam@c-71-60-244-197.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #supertux
16:33 < grumbel> nightcave is good, the rest is crap
16:34 < WolfgangB> as long as they don't disappear after i use them i a level
16:34 < octo> grumbel: What was the third one you added? I can't remember right now ..
16:34 < octo> grumbel: Dark snow or something?
16:35 < octo> WolfgangB: Yeah, if we remove them, we should remove them asap
16:35 < AnMaster> no comments on that one due to not having checked them out (and atm I'm on a laptop with super high resolution, so the tiles would be very small. ~114 dpi does have some disadvantages)
16:35 < grumbel> octo: mountain stuff
16:35 < WolfgangB> AnMaster: iirc you can add zoom with some command line argument
16:36 < octo> grumbel: So do you want to try to improve the crystal cave one? I really do like it
16:36 < grumbel> that gets most likely degraded to a background tileset
16:36 < AnMaster> WolfgangB, sure, but since the the colour reproduction on this thinkpad sucks, it would be hard to give any relevant opinion
16:36 < grumbel> the snowmountain stuff needs to be repainted
16:37 < WolfgangB> if they will be changed again we must not distribute these tiles without a warning. otherwise 3rd party level designer will be upset
16:38 < octo> grumbel: Fair enough - as long as it doesn't disappear completely ;)
16:38 < WolfgangB> then again it already is called unstable
16:39 < octo> grumbel: So should I remove the solidity flag from the crystal cave tiles?
16:41 < octo> Okay, I think that about wraps it up.. Next point is:
16:41 < WolfgangB> the editor should preserve unknown trees and support user defined tiles. wasn't there already some code for user tiles? oh man all so long ago
16:41 < octo> Worldmap of Icy Island
16:41 < octo> Mathnerd314 has changed the worldmap in SVN just before this meeting to be "more linear"
16:41 < AnMaster> WolfgangB, level editor preserving unknown trees is easier said than done
16:42 < WolfgangB> I know
16:42 < octo> It has still a lot of alternative paths and, in my opinion, looks rather like a quick hack
16:42 < AnMaster> without completely rewriting huge parts of the editor
16:42 < WolfgangB> tried that one and failed
16:43 < WolfgangB> octo: because it is a quick hack?
16:43 < WolfgangB> in a stable release the worldmap should fit with the levels eg some mountains on the map for cave levels
16:44 < octo> WolfgangB: Possibly ;)
16:44 < WolfgangB> but while the levels are changing how can you do that now?
16:44 < octo> I have a version of the worldmap which is an exact copy of the milestone 1 worldmap, as grumbel suggested
16:45 < octo> It's missing a passage to the Forest and basically everything else, too (even the Yeti currently)
16:46 < octo> Should I put work into that, i.e. add the Yeti and the introduction or should be improve the current worldmap?
16:46 < WolfgangB> the 0.1 worldmap was linear and the levels tell some kind of a story. it was changed for 0.3 so you can go to the "new" part faster.
16:46 < octo> My suggestion was to remove the passage to the Forest so it is only accessible through "Contrib levels"
16:46 < grumbel> are we talking about stuff to do before 0.3.3 or after?
16:48 < octo> grumbel: Good question. But I'd do changes that are big for the user but easy to do for developers before
16:48 < octo> grumbel: I.e. rather than ripping out the Forest right after 0.3.3 is out, I'd move it to contribs *now* (i.e. before 0.3.3 is out)
16:52 < octo> No opinions?
16:52 < grumbel> fine with me, however not so sure how much extra work that is going to require to make that work properly
16:53 < octo> grumbel: I don't think it's a lot of work.. The intro and yeti stuff can be taken from the current version I guess
16:53 < octo> grumbel: And removing the boat / passage shouldn't be a problem either – ripping stuff out is usually easy.
16:54 < octo> Okay, so the suggestion is: Restore the Milestone 1 worldmap and add the intro and Yeti levels. There will be no passage to/from the Forest and the Forest / World 2 will be moved to contributed levels.
16:55 < octo> Who's in favor?
16:55 * octo is ;)
16:56 < WolfgangB> why don't we keep the boat, too?
16:56 < grumbel> octo: do it
16:56 < octo> WolfgangB: To demonstrate to the user that the final word regarding the forest has not yet been spoken, i.e. it might be removed
16:58 < AnMaster> no opinion on this
17:00 < octo> Okay, let's get to the next point (and I suggest this to be the last point for today):
17:00 < octo> New names for badguys. Which to rename and (if applicable) which name to use?:
17:00 < WolfgangB> why rename them?
17:00 < octo> Maybe I can get a quick sign of approval or opposition for these renames (according to the MS2 document):
17:00 < octo> * Bouncing Snowball → Bouncy
17:01 < octo> * Flying Snowball → Avior or Dex
17:01 < WolfgangB> most names are not used ingame at all, but they are better to memorize for developement than badgy#3
17:01 < octo> * Kamikaze Snowball → Snowshot
17:01 *** tuxdev [~tim@unaffiliated/tuxdev] has joined #supertux
17:01 < octo> * Mr. Bomb → Fuse
17:01 < octo> * Jumpy → Recoil
17:01 < octo> WolfgangB: Because I want the wiki to use the same names consistently
17:02 < AnMaster> what is wrong with Jumpy?
17:02 < AnMaster> octo, in general I prefer the older names there
17:02 < WolfgangB> then change the names in the wiki to match the reality. or don't if its just some user discussion using made up names
17:02 < octo> AnMaster: Personally I don't think anything is wrong with any of the current names..
17:02 < AnMaster> well, maybe not for "Kamikaze Snowball"
17:03 < AnMaster> Snowshot might be better for that one
17:03 < AnMaster> *shrug*
17:03 < octo> WolfgangB: The problem is: This is a "Milestone 2" vs. "rest of the wiki" problem - it's all in the wiki
17:03 < WolfgangB> rm -r wiki
17:04 < WolfgangB> maybe i should read more wiki discussions, but i never heade most of the new names
17:05 < WolfgangB> "short fuse" was a sugestion for some different kind of bomb IIRC
17:05 < octo> WolfgangB: This is probably the only place where they appear: http://supertux.lethargik.org/wiki/Milestone_2_Design_Document/Enemies
17:06 < octo> WolfgangB: "Milestone 2 Design Document/Tasks" says: "fix and cleanup all the enemy names - see Milestone 2 Design Document/Enemies for new names"
17:06 < WolfgangB> oh, ok, if grumbel thinks the badguys need new names do it. ha probably has a good reason
17:06 < octo> WolfgangB: So determining what we actually want is IMHO the first step of fixing anything ;)
17:07 *** Greeny is now known as Greeny|afk
17:07 < grumbel> what we want is good and interesting names
17:07 < grumbel> finding them is the hard part
17:08 < octo> Personally, I don't like "Avior" nor "Dex". With the other names I don't have much preference
17:08 < grumbel> yeah, neither of them really sounds much good
17:09 < octo> Okay, so everybody alright with renaming all the above except "Flying Snowball"?
17:09 < octo> Or does anybody have an idea for a new "Flying Snowball" name?
17:10 < WolfgangB> if the new names are not good yet, then there is no need to rename now
17:11 < octo> WolfgangB: Which other new name do you think is not good yet?
17:11 < grumbel> no hurry there, just change the design document to refelect which names are not good
17:12 < MMlosh> actually... The only change I agree with is Flying snowball rename
17:12 < MMlosh> jumpy, Mr. Bomb sound allright to me
17:13 < octo> grumbel: *done*
17:13 < AnMaster> hm
17:13 *** yetanothername [~yam@c-71-60-244-197.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net]
17:13 < AnMaster> I don't really like Fuse for Mr. Bomb
17:13 < AnMaster> but I'm okay with it
17:13 < AnMaster> prefer the old one there
17:14 < MMlosh> octo, even for level editor? what about translation for old levels to new names? that is impossible, right?
17:14 < AnMaster> and I'm definitely against the names Avior and Dex
17:14 < octo> MMlosh: The internals don't change..
17:14 < AnMaster> they just doesn't sound right
17:14 < octo> MMlosh: I just don't like the MS2 document to talk about "Fuse" when *everywhere* else it's "Mr. Bomb"
17:14 < octo> MMlosh: This is exclusively a documentation issue
17:15 *** Guest16709 [~ohnobinki@ohnobinki-1-pt.tunnel.tserv9.chi1.ipv6.he.net] has joined #supertux
17:15 < MMlosh> ah.. that way..   but Mr.Bomb still sounds much better
17:15 < WolfgangB> if the internals don't change, how am is supposed to search a bug reported for "The Fuse" without knowing that the code is called "MrBomb" and in the editor "das teil das wo explodiert"
17:16 < octo> WolfgangB: Because what the editor displays ("Fuse", for example) does not have to be the same it puts into the .stl file
17:16 *** Guest16709 is now known as binki
17:17 < octo> WolfgangB: What's in the .stl file is the only thing that matters for compatibility to old levels (well, name-wise at least)
17:17 < WolfgangB> yea, then we get bug reports for $YourLanguageForBomb" and have to rack it down somehow
17:17 < octo> WolfgangB: We'll get that anyhow
17:17 < AnMaster> hm
17:18 < AnMaster> octo, when is the release planned?
17:18 < WolfgangB> sry, have to chat a train
17:18 < octo> It's not like the names in the .stl files, the implementation and the documentation match *now*
17:18 < AnMaster> octo, I might update the Swedish translation tomorrow
17:18 < AnMaster> now time today
17:18 < AnMaster> no*
17:18 *** WolfgangB [~wolfgang@88.130.223.150] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
17:18 < octo> AnMaster: Soon ;)
17:18 *** binki [~ohnobinki@ohnobinki-1-pt.tunnel.tserv9.chi1.ipv6.he.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:18 < AnMaster> octo, so, sometime after tomorrow (UTC)
17:18 < AnMaster> ?
17:19 < octo> AnMaster: The worldmap issue is on my todo list, other than that I think we're mostly set
17:19 < octo> Or, as set as we're ever going to be
17:19 < octo> AnMaster: If I know that you're working on it, I can wait for you
17:19 < AnMaster> octo, well, I can do it tomorrow, today I'm somewhat busy
17:20 < AnMaster> and tomorrow might very well be during the afternoon
17:20 < octo> grumbel: I think this got lost now: Should I make the crystal cave tiles non-solid before the release? This way nobody will use them in 3rd party levels (as solid tiles anyways)
17:20 < octo> AnMaster: Sounds okay
17:21 < grumbel> octo: can't hurt
17:21 < octo> grumbel: Okay
17:21 < AnMaster> <WolfgangB> sry, have to chat a train <-- oh, took a while until I realised it was a typo for "catch" heh
17:22 < octo> Okay, maybe I'm being a bit annoying now, but maybe we can at least try to agree on some renames
17:22 < Lazure> what do you mean octo?
17:22 < octo> Is anyone opposed to rename "Bouncing Snowball" to "Bouncy" and "Kamikaze Snowball" to "Snowshot"?
17:23 < octo> Lazure: [[Meeting 2010-02-27]] → "New names for badguys" ;)
17:23 < Lazure> not making tiles solid, i mean
17:23 < grumbel> Snowshot is good
17:23 < AnMaster> octo, btw I can't find kbabel for KDE4. I used to use that back when I was on KDE3...
17:23 < AnMaster> so any idea of a good po file tool for kde4 or gnome?
17:23 < grumbel> Bouncy is shorter and not much different then the current name, so I think we can use Bouncy too
17:23 < octo> Lazure: Grumbel has added some tiles to the SVN which we currently plan to use as background only
17:24 < octo> Lazure: If those are "solid" (i.e. Tux can stand on them), someone *might* use those to create levels, which shouldn't be done in this state
17:24 < MMlosh> Snowshot is good, "Bouncy" has too strong association to java game shipped with nokia phones
17:25 < octo> Okay, agreeing on two renames out of five (one positive, one negative result ;) isn't too bad ;)
17:27 < AnMaster> MMlosh, hm? Snake?
17:27 * AnMaster has a nokia phone.
17:28 < AnMaster> it has 3D snake -_-
17:28 < MMlosh> AnMaster, no..  a game with a red ball
17:28 < AnMaster> (it is a basic model, iirc, not symbian or anything fancy like that, S40 series or such iirc)
17:28 < octo> Okay, one last point: Next week, same time and place?
17:28 < AnMaster> MMlosh, ah seen that on some, mine doesn't have it
17:29 < AnMaster> octo, no idea if I can make it to that
17:29 < MMlosh> named "bouncy"... it was on old models and its 3D version is on that new touchscreen nokia
17:29 < AnMaster> ah
17:29 < octo> AnMaster: Would another time or Sunday be better for you?
17:30 < AnMaster> octo, can't really plan ahead at all
17:30 < octo> AnMaster: Okay
17:30 < AnMaster> just go ahead without me if I'm not there
17:30 < AnMaster> octo, it all depends on how many assignments I get at university during next week.
17:30 < AnMaster> (and how long it takes to write the reports)