Meeting 2010-02-27

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The 2010-02-27 meeting was held on Saturday, February 27th at 15:00 UTC on IRC.

Present were:

Contents

Minutes

Project management

  • (Unstable) Release - how?
    • octo has a release tarball that needs testing.
    • Tasks to be done (by who?):
      • Upload tarball to file server (BerliOS? Google? Lethargik?)
        People listed at http://developer.berlios.de/projects/supertux/ as "admins" can upload to BerliOS.
        All previous releases are hosted at BerliOS. I think it makes sense to keep them there. - sik0fewl 19:28, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
      • Update download page http://supertux.lethargik.org/download.html
        Everybody with SVN access by editing trunk/htdocs/
        I can do this, but so can any developer. - sik0fewl 19:28, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
      • Announce on freshmeat.net (Project there by AnMaster?)
        AnMaster and WolfgangB
      • Announce on http://happypenguin.org/
        Can be done by everybody
      • Update bug tracker
        → octo'll do it
      • Binary packages?
        • According to WolfgangB, SuperTux did provide Linux autopackage and Windows binaries along the source tarballs.
        • Previous Windows binaries were built by "Delta" / "Sommer"
  • Last chance to change Versioning scheme
    • Nobody felt it necessary to discuss this again. Mathnerd314, who put it on the agenda, wasn't there anymore.
  • Next meeting date and time - every Saturday at 15:00 UTC?

Gameplay

  • Feedback for the Yeti level.
    • Postponed (again) because Mathnerd314 wasn't there.
  • New tiles from grumbel - which are useful?
    • grumbel: nightcave is good, the rest is crap
    • grumbel: Make "Crystal cave" into a background tileset
    • grumbel: the snowmountain stuff needs to be repainted
    • WolfgangB, octo: If tilesets should be removed, do this ASAP (before they are used in levels by 3rd parties)
    • → octo will make Crystal cave tiles non-solid so they cannot be used as interactive tiles.
  • Milestone 1-like worldmap - do now or later (which ideas to keep from the new one?)
    • "Now" meaning before the release?
    • octo has a version of the Milestone 1 worldmap in Milestone 2 syntax. Use that or work on the current version?
    • The worldmap has been changed just before the meeting (revision 6419) by Mathnerd314.
    • WolfgangB: in a stable release the worldmap should fit with the levels e.g. some mountains on the map for cave levels
  • Screw the forest? Keep for now? Don't delete ever?
    • Motion: Restore the Milestone 1 worldmap and add the intro and Yeti levels. There will be no passage to/from the Forest and the Forest / World 2 will be moved to contributed levels.
      • In favor: octo, grumbel
      • Opposed: nobody
      • No opinion: AnMaster
    • → Motion passes.
  • New names for badguys. Which to rename and (if applicable) which name to use?:
    AnMaster: in general I prefer the older names there. well, maybe not for "Kamikaze Snowball"
    WolfgangB: if grumbel thinks the badguys need new names do it
    octo: I don't like "Avior" nor "Dex". With the other names I don't have much preference
    grumbel: what we want is good and interesting names. finding them is the hard part
    MMlosh: The only change I agree with is Flying snowball rename. Snowshot is good, "Bouncy" has too strong association to java game shipped with nokia phones
    → Avior and Dex are off the stove. Kamikaze Snowball will be renamed to Snowshot. The other names are postponed until later.

Next meeting

Next Saturday, March 6th, at 15:00 UTC?

Log 

16:01 < octo> Okay, since Mathnerd314 Has to leave early I'd suggest we start ;)
16:01 < grumbel> Mathnerd314: I am here
16:01 < octo> First point is - again - the new release / development snapshot
16:02 < Mathnerd314> %$#*^ - have to leave now
16:02 < octo> I have created a tarball which lives at http://verplant.org/supertux/files/supertux-0.3.3.tar.bz2
16:02 < octo> It'd be great if I could get some feedback on it, especially regarding the README / WHATSNEW and, of course, if it doesn't buidl
16:02 < octo> +^T
16:02 < octo> Mathnerd314: Crap :(
16:03 < octo> It's possible that there are some unused graphics / sounds in the tarball which *should* be removed if possible - it's currently slightly over 60 MBytes
16:03 < Mathnerd314> let's just say my opinion is "do it" for every point.
16:03 < WolfgangB1> hi
16:03 < octo> Mathnerd314: Hehe ;)
16:04 *** Unnheulu [~ieuan@cpc5-pnth2-0-0-cust800.5-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
16:05 < octo> Other than that I'd like to know who is responsible for:
16:05 < octo> * Uploading the tarball to a final location
16:06 < octo> * Updating the download page of the website
16:06 < octo> * Updating the freshmeat.net record (AnMaster?)
16:06 < octo> * Updating the bug tracker (add the release)
16:06 < octo> I think I can easily do that last point ;)
16:07 < WolfgangB1> isn't  freshmeat updated for stable only?
16:07 < WolfgangB1> don't forget happypenguin
16:08 < octo> Hm, *I* would update freshmeat as often as possible ;)
16:10 < AnMaster> hi there
16:11 *** WolfgangB1 [~wolfgang@88.130.223.150] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
16:11 < AnMaster> octo, currently I'm really busy in real life due to university.
16:11 < octo> Hey AnMaster :)
16:11 < AnMaster> but what was that about freshmeat?
16:11 *** WolfgangB [~wolfgang@88.130.223.150] has joined #supertux
16:12 < octo> AnMaster: I would have announced that release on freshmeat, and the user account that last updated that record looked like it could belong to you ;)
16:12 < AnMaster> hm
16:12 < AnMaster> what release?
16:13 * AnMaster has been completely unable to keep up with supertux recently
16:13 < octo> AnMaster: A new development snapshot, 0.3.3
16:13 < AnMaster> lets see...
16:14 < octo> So nobody knows about download servers?
16:14 < octo> I assume sik0fewl can update the website, right?
16:14 < grumbel> brb
16:14 < AnMaster> download servers where?
16:14 < octo> That's what I want to know. Where should the tarball(s) be uploaded to and who can do that?
16:14 < AnMaster> octo, I have/had ssh access to lethergik if that is what you meant. For user account supertux (under which the website runs) too
16:15 < AnMaster> but I don't think we hosted that
16:15 < AnMaster> didn't we use berlios or sf.net still for it?
16:15 < AnMaster> I don't really remember
16:15 < octo> AnMaster: I think currently the files are on Berlios, but there was talk about possibly host them somewhere else
16:15 < WolfgangB> on berlis the people listed as "project admins" http://developer.berlios.de/projects/supertux/ can add releases
16:15 < AnMaster> octo, about freshmeat update, it looks like WolfgangB have access too
16:15 < WolfgangB> i do?
16:15 < AnMaster> and sommerc, which would be delta iirc
16:16 < AnMaster> WolfgangB, yep http://freshmeat.net/projects/supertux/roles claims so
16:16 < octo> WolfgangB, AnMaster: Thanks
16:16 < AnMaster> WolfgangB, so you can add release on berlios, I can't
16:17 < AnMaster> on sf.net: no clue
16:17 < WolfgangB> ok I found my freshmeat account
16:18 < octo> WolfgangB: So how does updating happypenguin.org work?
16:18 < AnMaster> our mediawiki looks outdated btw. Probably someone should update it. But I really don't remember how. It was rather messy iirc
16:18 < WolfgangB> log in, submit update, wat for admin to aprove
16:19 < AnMaster> you had to diff against a clean copy for local changes, then apply that diff to the new version and fix conflicts
16:19 < AnMaster> and a few more steps iirc
16:19 < AnMaster> well yeah, database stuff too
16:19 < octo> WolfgangB: So anyone can do that?
16:19 < AnMaster> plus any special steps in the release notes
16:19 < WolfgangB> octo: yes
16:20 < octo> WolfgangB: Okay
16:20 < AnMaster> happypenguin.org <-- I don't even have an account there afaik
16:20 < WolfgangB> no gotm?
16:20 < AnMaster> gotm?
16:20 *** zoobox [~zoobox@h85n1fls305o253.telia.com] has left #supertux []
16:20 < AnMaster> (what is that?)
16:21 < WolfgangB> http://www.happypenguin.org/newsitem?id=4455
16:21 < AnMaster> ah yeah
16:21 < AnMaster> game of the month I guess
16:22 < Greeny> who is responsible for the windows build ? ;)
16:23 < octo> Good question
16:23 < WolfgangB> let them compile source ;-)
16:23 < octo> Did SuperTux provide binary packages for previous releases?
16:23 < Greeny> yes
16:23 < WolfgangB> source, linux autopackage, windows binary
16:24 < AnMaster> <Greeny> who is responsible for the windows build ? ;) <-- I'm on exclusively linux since several years
16:24 < AnMaster> well, some freebsd too
16:25 < AnMaster> actually, there is one old old MacOS 9 too
16:25 < AnMaster> (pre-OS X, really old macs. Think one-button)
16:25 < AnMaster> (that one is a first generation ibook in fact)
16:25 < octo> Okay, if anyone remembers who built the Windows binaries let me know..
16:25 < AnMaster> WolfgangB, was the autopackage a x86_64 one?
16:26 < AnMaster> octo, I think delta did
16:26 < AnMaster> not completely sure
16:26 < octo> AnMaster: Oh, that was a name? ;) Okay, I'll put that down
16:26 < AnMaster> octo, delta = sommer iirc in some places
16:26 < octo> AnMaster: Ah
16:26 < AnMaster> octo, I haven't seen him for ages though
16:26 < AnMaster> any idea what became of him?
16:27 < octo> Okay, I don't precisely *need* to discuss the versioning schema again (that's the next point)
16:27 < WolfgangB> AnMaster: IIRC there never was a 64bit Autopackage but the 32 bit version was reported to work
16:27 < AnMaster> ah
16:27 < octo> Does anyone see need for discussing that again?
16:27 < octo> (I think Mathnerd314 put it on the agenda)
16:27 < AnMaster> did it change again or?
16:28 < WolfgangB> no idea? named reveision now or what?
16:28 < AnMaster> (by the way, who have access to change the topic in here?)
16:28 < octo> AnMaster: Mathnerd314 I think, maybe grumbel
16:28 < AnMaster> hm
16:28 < AnMaster> /cs access #supertux list
16:28 < AnMaster> gives
16:28 < AnMaster> CharlieG and grumbel
16:29 < AnMaster> but the flags look messed up...
16:29 < WolfgangB> http://developer.berlios.de/project/showfiles.php?group_id=3467 no 64bit Auptopackage
16:29 *** Auria [~Auria@69-4-213-152.mediom.qc.ca] has joined #supertux
16:29 < AnMaster> according to it grumbel can change the access list flags but not view them (with flags command, never mind that freenode allows viewing them anyway with the access command)
16:30 < octo> WolfgangB: I was recently pushing towards another schema which increased the minor version whenever new stuff was added (or removed)
16:30 < octo> WolfgangB: This would leave room for patch releases
16:30 < octo> WolfgangB: However, I seemed to be the only one seeing a problem with the current schema, so we didn't change anything
16:31 < octo> Let's move to the gameplay points then:
16:31 < octo> grumbel has added some new tiles this week
16:31 < AnMaster> I suggest next version should be log_{e}\(\frac{\pi}{2}\)
16:31 < octo> Nightcave, Crystal cave and, ..., uhm, one more iIrc
16:31 < AnMaster> (that might not pass as valid LaTeX on closer examination)
16:32 < octo> It says in the agenda: "New tiles from grumbel - which are useful?"
16:32 < octo> Any thoughts?
16:32 *** yetanothername [~yam@c-71-60-244-197.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #supertux
16:33 < grumbel> nightcave is good, the rest is crap
16:34 < WolfgangB> as long as they don't disappear after i use them i a level
16:34 < octo> grumbel: What was the third one you added? I can't remember right now ..
16:34 < octo> grumbel: Dark snow or something?
16:35 < octo> WolfgangB: Yeah, if we remove them, we should remove them asap
16:35 < AnMaster> no comments on that one due to not having checked them out (and atm I'm on a laptop with super high resolution, so the tiles would be very small. ~114 dpi does have some disadvantages)
16:35 < grumbel> octo: mountain stuff
16:35 < WolfgangB> AnMaster: iirc you can add zoom with some command line argument
16:36 < octo> grumbel: So do you want to try to improve the crystal cave one? I really do like it
16:36 < grumbel> that gets most likely degraded to a background tileset
16:36 < AnMaster> WolfgangB, sure, but since the the colour reproduction on this thinkpad sucks, it would be hard to give any relevant opinion
16:36 < grumbel> the snowmountain stuff needs to be repainted
16:37 < WolfgangB> if they will be changed again we must not distribute these tiles without a warning. otherwise 3rd party level designer will be upset
16:38 < octo> grumbel: Fair enough - as long as it doesn't disappear completely ;)
16:38 < WolfgangB> then again it already is called unstable
16:39 < octo> grumbel: So should I remove the solidity flag from the crystal cave tiles?
16:41 < octo> Okay, I think that about wraps it up.. Next point is:
16:41 < WolfgangB> the editor should preserve unknown trees and support user defined tiles. wasn't there already some code for user tiles? oh man all so long ago
16:41 < octo> Worldmap of Icy Island
16:41 < octo> Mathnerd314 has changed the worldmap in SVN just before this meeting to be "more linear"
16:41 < AnMaster> WolfgangB, level editor preserving unknown trees is easier said than done
16:42 < WolfgangB> I know
16:42 < octo> It has still a lot of alternative paths and, in my opinion, looks rather like a quick hack
16:42 < AnMaster> without completely rewriting huge parts of the editor
16:42 < WolfgangB> tried that one and failed
16:43 < WolfgangB> octo: because it is a quick hack?
16:43 < WolfgangB> in a stable release the worldmap should fit with the levels eg some mountains on the map for cave levels
16:44 < octo> WolfgangB: Possibly ;)
16:44 < WolfgangB> but while the levels are changing how can you do that now?
16:44 < octo> I have a version of the worldmap which is an exact copy of the milestone 1 worldmap, as grumbel suggested
16:45 < octo> It's missing a passage to the Forest and basically everything else, too (even the Yeti currently)
16:46 < octo> Should I put work into that, i.e. add the Yeti and the introduction or should be improve the current worldmap?
16:46 < WolfgangB> the 0.1 worldmap was linear and the levels tell some kind of a story. it was changed for 0.3 so you can go to the "new" part faster.
16:46 < octo> My suggestion was to remove the passage to the Forest so it is only accessible through "Contrib levels"
16:46 < grumbel> are we talking about stuff to do before 0.3.3 or after?
16:48 < octo> grumbel: Good question. But I'd do changes that are big for the user but easy to do for developers before
16:48 < octo> grumbel: I.e. rather than ripping out the Forest right after 0.3.3 is out, I'd move it to contribs *now* (i.e. before 0.3.3 is out)
16:52 < octo> No opinions?
16:52 < grumbel> fine with me, however not so sure how much extra work that is going to require to make that work properly
16:53 < octo> grumbel: I don't think it's a lot of work.. The intro and yeti stuff can be taken from the current version I guess
16:53 < octo> grumbel: And removing the boat / passage shouldn't be a problem either – ripping stuff out is usually easy.
16:54 < octo> Okay, so the suggestion is: Restore the Milestone 1 worldmap and add the intro and Yeti levels. There will be no passage to/from the Forest and the Forest / World 2 will be moved to contributed levels.
16:55 < octo> Who's in favor?
16:55 * octo is ;)
16:56 < WolfgangB> why don't we keep the boat, too?
16:56 < grumbel> octo: do it
16:56 < octo> WolfgangB: To demonstrate to the user that the final word regarding the forest has not yet been spoken, i.e. it might be removed
16:58 < AnMaster> no opinion on this
17:00 < octo> Okay, let's get to the next point (and I suggest this to be the last point for today):
17:00 < octo> New names for badguys. Which to rename and (if applicable) which name to use?:
17:00 < WolfgangB> why rename them?
17:00 < octo> Maybe I can get a quick sign of approval or opposition for these renames (according to the MS2 document):
17:00 < octo> * Bouncing Snowball → Bouncy
17:01 < octo> * Flying Snowball → Avior or Dex
17:01 < WolfgangB> most names are not used ingame at all, but they are better to memorize for developement than badgy#3
17:01 < octo> * Kamikaze Snowball → Snowshot
17:01 *** tuxdev [~tim@unaffiliated/tuxdev] has joined #supertux
17:01 < octo> * Mr. Bomb → Fuse
17:01 < octo> * Jumpy → Recoil
17:01 < octo> WolfgangB: Because I want the wiki to use the same names consistently
17:02 < AnMaster> what is wrong with Jumpy?
17:02 < AnMaster> octo, in general I prefer the older names there
17:02 < WolfgangB> then change the names in the wiki to match the reality. or don't if its just some user discussion using made up names
17:02 < octo> AnMaster: Personally I don't think anything is wrong with any of the current names..
17:02 < AnMaster> well, maybe not for "Kamikaze Snowball"
17:03 < AnMaster> Snowshot might be better for that one
17:03 < AnMaster> *shrug*
17:03 < octo> WolfgangB: The problem is: This is a "Milestone 2" vs. "rest of the wiki" problem - it's all in the wiki
17:03 < WolfgangB> rm -r wiki
17:04 < WolfgangB> maybe i should read more wiki discussions, but i never heade most of the new names
17:05 < WolfgangB> "short fuse" was a sugestion for some different kind of bomb IIRC
17:05 < octo> WolfgangB: This is probably the only place where they appear: http://supertux.lethargik.org/wiki/Milestone_2_Design_Document/Enemies
17:06 < octo> WolfgangB: "Milestone 2 Design Document/Tasks" says: "fix and cleanup all the enemy names - see Milestone 2 Design Document/Enemies for new names"
17:06 < WolfgangB> oh, ok, if grumbel thinks the badguys need new names do it. ha probably has a good reason
17:06 < octo> WolfgangB: So determining what we actually want is IMHO the first step of fixing anything ;)
17:07 *** Greeny is now known as Greeny|afk
17:07 < grumbel> what we want is good and interesting names
17:07 < grumbel> finding them is the hard part
17:08 < octo> Personally, I don't like "Avior" nor "Dex". With the other names I don't have much preference
17:08 < grumbel> yeah, neither of them really sounds much good
17:09 < octo> Okay, so everybody alright with renaming all the above except "Flying Snowball"?
17:09 < octo> Or does anybody have an idea for a new "Flying Snowball" name?
17:10 < WolfgangB> if the new names are not good yet, then there is no need to rename now
17:11 < octo> WolfgangB: Which other new name do you think is not good yet?
17:11 < grumbel> no hurry there, just change the design document to refelect which names are not good
17:12 < MMlosh> actually... The only change I agree with is Flying snowball rename
17:12 < MMlosh> jumpy, Mr. Bomb sound allright to me
17:13 < octo> grumbel: *done*
17:13 < AnMaster> hm
17:13 *** yetanothername [~yam@c-71-60-244-197.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net]
17:13 < AnMaster> I don't really like Fuse for Mr. Bomb
17:13 < AnMaster> but I'm okay with it
17:13 < AnMaster> prefer the old one there
17:14 < MMlosh> octo, even for level editor? what about translation for old levels to new names? that is impossible, right?
17:14 < AnMaster> and I'm definitely against the names Avior and Dex
17:14 < octo> MMlosh: The internals don't change..
17:14 < AnMaster> they just doesn't sound right
17:14 < octo> MMlosh: I just don't like the MS2 document to talk about "Fuse" when *everywhere* else it's "Mr. Bomb"
17:14 < octo> MMlosh: This is exclusively a documentation issue
17:15 *** Guest16709 [~ohnobinki@ohnobinki-1-pt.tunnel.tserv9.chi1.ipv6.he.net] has joined #supertux
17:15 < MMlosh> ah.. that way..   but Mr.Bomb still sounds much better
17:15 < WolfgangB> if the internals don't change, how am is supposed to search a bug reported for "The Fuse" without knowing that the code is called "MrBomb" and in the editor "das teil das wo explodiert"
17:16 < octo> WolfgangB: Because what the editor displays ("Fuse", for example) does not have to be the same it puts into the .stl file
17:16 *** Guest16709 is now known as binki
17:17 < octo> WolfgangB: What's in the .stl file is the only thing that matters for compatibility to old levels (well, name-wise at least)
17:17 < WolfgangB> yea, then we get bug reports for $YourLanguageForBomb" and have to rack it down somehow
17:17 < octo> WolfgangB: We'll get that anyhow
17:17 < AnMaster> hm
17:18 < AnMaster> octo, when is the release planned?
17:18 < WolfgangB> sry, have to chat a train
17:18 < octo> It's not like the names in the .stl files, the implementation and the documentation match *now*
17:18 < AnMaster> octo, I might update the Swedish translation tomorrow
17:18 < AnMaster> now time today
17:18 < AnMaster> no*
17:18 *** WolfgangB [~wolfgang@88.130.223.150] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
17:18 < octo> AnMaster: Soon ;)
17:18 *** binki [~ohnobinki@ohnobinki-1-pt.tunnel.tserv9.chi1.ipv6.he.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:18 < AnMaster> octo, so, sometime after tomorrow (UTC)
17:18 < AnMaster> ?
17:19 < octo> AnMaster: The worldmap issue is on my todo list, other than that I think we're mostly set
17:19 < octo> Or, as set as we're ever going to be
17:19 < octo> AnMaster: If I know that you're working on it, I can wait for you
17:19 < AnMaster> octo, well, I can do it tomorrow, today I'm somewhat busy
17:20 < AnMaster> and tomorrow might very well be during the afternoon
17:20 < octo> grumbel: I think this got lost now: Should I make the crystal cave tiles non-solid before the release? This way nobody will use them in 3rd party levels (as solid tiles anyways)
17:20 < octo> AnMaster: Sounds okay
17:21 < grumbel> octo: can't hurt
17:21 < octo> grumbel: Okay
17:21 < AnMaster> <WolfgangB> sry, have to chat a train <-- oh, took a while until I realised it was a typo for "catch" heh
17:22 < octo> Okay, maybe I'm being a bit annoying now, but maybe we can at least try to agree on some renames
17:22 < Lazure> what do you mean octo?
17:22 < octo> Is anyone opposed to rename "Bouncing Snowball" to "Bouncy" and "Kamikaze Snowball" to "Snowshot"?
17:23 < octo> Lazure: [[Meeting 2010-02-27]] → "New names for badguys" ;)
17:23 < Lazure> not making tiles solid, i mean
17:23 < grumbel> Snowshot is good
17:23 < AnMaster> octo, btw I can't find kbabel for KDE4. I used to use that back when I was on KDE3...
17:23 < AnMaster> so any idea of a good po file tool for kde4 or gnome?
17:23 < grumbel> Bouncy is shorter and not much different then the current name, so I think we can use Bouncy too
17:23 < octo> Lazure: Grumbel has added some tiles to the SVN which we currently plan to use as background only
17:24 < octo> Lazure: If those are "solid" (i.e. Tux can stand on them), someone *might* use those to create levels, which shouldn't be done in this state
17:24 < MMlosh> Snowshot is good, "Bouncy" has too strong association to java game shipped with nokia phones
17:25 < octo> Okay, agreeing on two renames out of five (one positive, one negative result ;) isn't too bad ;)
17:27 < AnMaster> MMlosh, hm? Snake?
17:27 * AnMaster has a nokia phone.
17:28 < AnMaster> it has 3D snake -_-
17:28 < MMlosh> AnMaster, no..  a game with a red ball
17:28 < AnMaster> (it is a basic model, iirc, not symbian or anything fancy like that, S40 series or such iirc)
17:28 < octo> Okay, one last point: Next week, same time and place?
17:28 < AnMaster> MMlosh, ah seen that on some, mine doesn't have it
17:29 < AnMaster> octo, no idea if I can make it to that
17:29 < MMlosh> named "bouncy"... it was on old models and its 3D version is on that new touchscreen nokia
17:29 < AnMaster> ah
17:29 < octo> AnMaster: Would another time or Sunday be better for you?
17:30 < AnMaster> octo, can't really plan ahead at all
17:30 < octo> AnMaster: Okay
17:30 < AnMaster> just go ahead without me if I'm not there
17:30 < AnMaster> octo, it all depends on how many assignments I get at university during next week.
17:30 < AnMaster> (and how long it takes to write the reports)
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