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Meeting log (2005-04-02)

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The following is the SuperTux meeting log for Saturday, April 2, 2005.

-->     wansti ( has joined #supertux
<en453> hi
<wansti>        hi everyone
<MatzeB>        ah Hi wansti
<wansti>        hi MatzeB
<groundwater>   hello from Philadelphia
<wansti>        did the meeting start yet?
<MatzeB>        no
<Johnlein>      oi
<MatzeB>        will you lead the discussion a bit?
<wansti>        me?
<MatzeB>        well you had the idea ;-)
<wansti>        sure if you want me to
<MatzeB>        go ahaid I'd say
<wansti>        can do
<MatzeB>        after all you wrote most of the topic text in the wiki
<wansti>        how about the other developers (tobgle, blacksheep, paroneayea), are they gonna show up?
*       MatzeB has no idea...
<wansti>        has anyone heard from them?
<sik0fewl>      nope..
<grumbel>       nope
<sik0fewl>      is grumbel here?
<grumbel>       yes
<sik0fewl>      nevermind.. :)
<wansti>        apparently :)
<en453> Hello, I want to join development, and first of all I could translate the story in italian.
<wansti>        do we have an Italian translation? i don't think we do
<en453> You have only the menus
<wansti>        okay
<MatzeB>        there is a it.po file...
<MatzeB>        yep, for levels we only have de.po and nn.po so far
<wansti>        okay, then i guess we could use an italian translation
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<grumbel>       paroneayea: welcome
<paroneayea>    sorry for being late
<wansti>        hi paroneayea
<paroneayea>    I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be at work right now or not c_c
---     Alex|AFK is now known as AlexanderBrock
<wansti>        paroneayea: you're supposed to be right here where you are :)
<wansti>        okay, i guess we can start now
<MatzeB>        yep
<paroneayea>    well, I might freak out, start flailing my arms, and run off to work.. but I can install xchat
                there :)
<MatzeB>        we can upload logs later if someone comes late
<wansti>        hehe... okay
<paroneayea>    So, what to start with?
<wansti>        we were talking about new members already so let's start with that
*       paroneayea opens
<paroneayea>    ah, okay
<MatzeB>        so who's new?
<paroneayea>    are there new members?  Besides groundwater?
<sik0fewl>      AlexanderBrock:
<AlexanderBrock>        Yes me.
<MatzeB>        so tell us a bit what you want to do
<groundwater>   hello, I'll try not to screw stuff up :)
<wansti>        heh
<AlexanderBrock>        I did some graphics.
<wansti>        ah those were yours
<NabilS>        Is there any place for a coder in SuperTux?
<paroneayea>    weren't those coins in the game for a while?
<paroneayea>    NabilS: sure.. but as I understand it, current cvs code is a bit funky
<wansti>        those that are in the game now are the ones grumbel made for tuxkart
<MatzeB>        paroneayea: I think not...
<AlexanderBrock>        Do you think they are helpfull  (my graphics)?
<NabilS>        I'm better at code than at graphics, I must admit
<wansti>        AlexanderBrock: i like the flame and the tube
<wansti>        the coins, too...
<sik0fewl>      paroneayea: it's not "funky", it's just way different than before
<wansti>        there was some discussion about wether to keep the current coins
<NabilS>        Very nice graphics
<grumbel>       AlexanderBrock: not much, don't fit the style very well
<MatzeB>        it doesn't really match that hand-drawn style...
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<paroneayea>    yeah... could you try doing something more hand-drawn?
<dolphin>       meeting what?
<paroneayea>    dolphin: meeting now.
<dolphin>       ic
---     sik0fewl has changed the topic to: | Welcome to SuperTux's official channel! Visit our webpage at | We need Graphic and Sound Artists | Plans for Forest world: | IRC Meeting on now
<grumbel>       dolphin:
<AlexanderBrock>        I will try doing hand-drawn-like graphics.
<AlexanderBrock>        I did them with a Raytracer, thats why they don't look like hand-drawn.
<wansti>        this discussion now leads to another topic which might be worth discussing first
<paroneayea>    AlexanderBrock: it should be noted, though, that there's more than one way of doing
                "hand-drawn-like graphics".... try to fit it with the current supertux style
<wansti>        team member functions
<MatzeB>        aren't there more people who would like to join?
<dolphin>       join what?
<MatzeB>        just tell us in 1 sentence what you know and what you'd like to do or so...
<wansti>        i suggest the following
<paroneayea>    why not attack both issues at once?
<AlexanderBrock>        paroneayea: I will try.
<paroneayea>    newcomers, and regulars, can all suggest what they would like to work on
<paroneayea>    or, should work on
<wansti>        everyone on the team should introduce new members to their respective area a bit
<paroneayea>    wansti: okay, that makes sense
<MatzeB>        en453? Johnlein? didn't you want to join?
<wansti>        that is: grumbel is the gfx guy, Matze is the code guy, paroneayea is the story guy and i'm the
                music/sfx guy
<groundwater>   Alex, hang out - post more stuff/ideas. if if fits the style we'll get it in .
<AlexanderBrock>        I know GIMP and POVRay and I like crating animated enemies.
<MatzeB>        and wansti does the levels!
<wansti>        oh right, levels
<grumbel>       and I do the editor
<wansti>        yep
<AlexanderBrock>        Does anyone do translations?
<paroneayea>    not yet
<MatzeB>        AlexanderBrock: lots of people from all over the world
<paroneayea>    really?  Hum, haven't seen them
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<wansti>        but there's no one on the team to "supervise" them
<MatzeB>        paroneayea: well only 3 or 4 so far :)
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<MatzeB>        for translations you can contact me
<NabilS>        I'm good with code, wish I can help
<MatzeB>        I did most of the code for that (with the help of grumbels nice tinygettext library)
<AlexanderBrock>        I could translate supertux to German.
<sik0fewl>      dammit..
<sik0fewl>      I press ctrl+something and xchat disappeared :P
<sik0fewl>      I will try to do some coding, but I can't make any promises
<sik0fewl>      I wanted to help on lincity-ng, too, but somehow could manage any time
<MatzeB>        for translations get cvs version and read the TRANSLATE file
<MatzeB>        and then do it or ask additional questions here or in the list :)
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<wansti>        AlexanderBrock: i think we already have german
*       paroneayea checks out current cvs
<paroneayea>    however
<MatzeB>        for those that want to join coding:
<paroneayea>    if we're adding more story
<paroneayea>    we need updated translations
<MatzeB>        anonymous cvs read-only access is publicly available
<grumbel>       paroneayea: we need updated translation anyway
<MatzeB>        so everyone who would like to join coding should get the cvs version
<grumbel>       paroneayea: but thats something to think about very very late in the milestone2 development
<MatzeB>        then read the TODO or do something else in the code
<dolphin>       MatzeB: what is needed
<MatzeB>        and send us some patches back
<wansti>        yes, getting cvs code is essential for any developer
<MatzeB>        if we like the code then we'll grant you cvs write access
<grumbel>       thinking about translating while developing stuff only slows down, a lot
<dolphin>       MatzeB: right, right, but what you need? :)
<MatzeB>        dolphin: it's in the TODO file in cvs
<wansti>        dolphin: we'll come to that later
<en453> sorry, I had to go away for a while but here I am, back
<wansti>        welcome back
<paroneayea>    also, are cutscenes officially scheduled for milestone 2, or is that just speculative at the
<wansti>        paroneayea: that's to be discussed today
<MatzeB>        paroneayea: later
<wansti>        yep
<MatzeB>        paroneayea: (later in this meeting I mean)
<paroneayea>    right
<MatzeB>        but I assume we can move on if noone else wants to introduce himself or wants to know more stuff on
                getting started with supertux development...
<paroneayea>    ls
<paroneayea>    oops
<wansti>        sik0fewl: can you keep an eye on the project website?
<dolphin>       paroneayea: keep it coming, next "su" :)
<sik0fewl>      wansti: yeah, I can do that
<wansti>        sik0fewl: okay, thanks
*       NabilS building from cvs
<en453> Well, I have to look at the sources
<wansti>        so it looks like we have all major tasks assigned to team members
<NabilS>        maybe we should add a option for uninstall in the jamfile
<en453> I downloaded them today
<wansti>        that doesn't mean, of course that the others can't help in other departments
<MatzeB>        NabilS: yes, but we'll discuss that later
<paroneayea>    yeah, these new coins look pretty dull
<grumbel>       NabilS: uninstall in makefiles is sick, evil and ugly, use checkinstall, stow or the like
<dolphin>       MatzeB: oh, you've got a real schedule? :)
<en453> As to introduce myself: I have programmed games with allegro for 1-2 years and recently switched to SDL
        ~6 months
<MatzeB>        en453: you're good with C++`
<en453> yeah
<en453> good enough
<MatzeB>        ok
<wansti>        okay, to anyone who wants to join the project: check out the code, do some work and send it to us
<MatzeB>        as said above we're awaiting patches :)
<wansti>        stay tuned now to see what we need
*       dolphin waits for stuff to do
<wansti>        s/anyone/everyone
<en453> go on
<dolphin>       you know me already, I've little experience on C++ and SDL + friends
<dolphin>       6 year so
<wansti>        okay, let's go to the next point on the agenda
<wansti>        we already decided that the next world should be a forest world
<wansti>        now we need to decide what new features we want to put into milestone 2
*       dolphin recommends that the downloader of the game doesn't have to play the old levels before getting to
        the new ones
<wansti>        there were already some ideas that need to be discussed
<MatzeB>        well lemme try some general statements:
<wansti>        go ahead
<MatzeB>        I think we should be carefull with introducing new features, only where needed and where they
                improve fun
<MatzeB>        but an area where we should improve is athmosphere of the game
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<NabilS>        cvs is brocken
<MatzeB>        ie. telling a story
<NabilS>        broken
<NabilS>        Error: Can't load
<NabilS>        /usr/local/bin/../share/supertux//images/shared/bell/bell-m.png
<paroneayea>    NabilS: works fine for me...
<grumbel>       New Actions for milestone2: Blowflyer, Buttjump, Flapping
<MatzeB>        improving background sound/graphics...
<MatzeB>        making fewer but better levels
<MatzeB>        and some sort of cutscenes would be important as well as bosses
<Zero_Dogg>     if you don't mind a player butting in, one thing that might be cool would be tux flying
<grumbel>       and fire/ice abilites even so we need to work on the details there
<MatzeB>        so far from my side :)
<wansti>        MatzeB, grumbel: i agree
<paroneayea>    yeah.. grumbel, not so sure I like the fire-tossing sprite.. looks like he's just kinda lazily
                flicking them.
<wansti>        levels will take much longer to build with all the new features, so there will be fewer anyway
<grumbel>       paroneayea: the current fire behaviour is relativly ugly, needs changing
<paroneayea>    dang.  iceblocks are borken in current cvs
<wansti>        about new features:
<grumbel>       New enemies are on bottom of
<wansti>        there was the idea of switching tux' abilities to a magic system
<wansti>        but it looks like we already dropped that idea
<paroneayea>    wansti: that would be a whole milestone
<paroneayea>    anyway
<paroneayea>    is the zeekling going to be implemented in milestone two?
<paroneayea>    now that it's usable as a sprite
<paroneayea>    grumbel: I like the tree
<grumbel>       wansti: I wouldn't call it magic-system, just some abilites which tux has which allow him to act
                specifically with enemies and environment
<wansti>        paroneayea: why not?
<en453> The tree is super
<paroneayea>    wansti: wait, why not what?  implement the zeekling or magic?
<wansti>        grumbel: there was the idea of giving tux a magic meter and mana for his abilities... that's what
                i meant
<wansti>        paroneayea: zeekling
<paroneayea>    oh
<grumbel>       wansti: ie. fire melts ice, fire activates torch switches, ice freezes water, etc.
<grumbel>       wansti: thats droped
<wansti>        that's not magic, that's physics :)
<paroneayea>    grumbel hated the idea of ammo/mana meter anyway
<dolphin>       what's the point of adding mana and such into such a game?
<grumbel>       I want to go for 'solid and blocky', new meters, no complicated state and such
<wansti>        what about the "fire melts ice" thing? that dropped, too?
<grumbel>       stuff should happen by interacting with the environment, and not be gymmicky (interesting once,
                boring for the rest of the game)
<MatzeB>        ammo/mana makes it just complicated - you have to do too much "tactics"...
<wansti>        agreed
<paroneayea>    I still don't like supertux's wing... looks disattached from his body.  I think I'll try to fix it
                at work.
<MatzeB>        while having different abilities in different parts of the game is great of course
<sik0fewl>      also agreed.
<MatzeB>        just not limit them with something like ammo/mana
<MatzeB>        more like a sector in the level where you have an extra ability... IMO
<wansti>        i like the idea of shots being able to do more than just kill enemies
<wansti>        how about that?
<MatzeB>        sure that's always nice
<sik0fewl>      MatzeB: agreed. there could be rare powerups that you only get in certain places and expire at the
                end of the sector
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<paroneayea>    also, certain powerups should give access to certain areas
<paroneayea>    I mean, how fire could melt iceblocks
<paroneayea>    not stuff that's necessary,
<paroneayea>    but like, knock away some iceblocks, there's a oneup
<paroneayea>    oh right, that reminds me....
<paroneayea>    are we going to implement sub-levels?  Like going down a tube
<grumbel>       classic mario thing is: coins trapped in iceblock, iceblock only meltable with fire
<grumbel>       paroneayea: we already have
<en453> Curiosity: When will supertux be able to get into the tubes, does it already?
<wansti>        paroneayea: yes we already did
<paroneayea>    dang, i need to play with cvs more :)
<MatzeB>        (though at the mometn we have doors and no tubes...)
<wansti>        there are doors you can use to get to another sector
<wansti>        i don't like the tubes
<MatzeB>        (but maybe we should simply leave the tubes to mario for now... not sure)
<wansti>        agreed
<paroneayea>    that's probably wise
<grumbel>       yep
<wansti>        okay, so let's stick to doors to change sectors
<NabilS>        Why not make enemies which are sensitive to ice and immune to fire (and vice-versa)
<grumbel>       wansti: and ladders
<paroneayea>    I think that's the plan... I can't imagine fire being killed by a fireball.  But neither can I
                imagine ice doing that much
<sik0fewl>      I think we could use tubes for getting to secret areas in the same level
<grumbel>       wansti: or something that makes you go up/down
<wansti>        grumbel: yes... and maybe invisible teleporters
<sik0fewl>      not a "transport", but rather just walk through it
<paroneayea>    invisible teleporters?  That sounds frustrating
<groundwater>   you can hide a door behind a tube if needed, works ok I bet
<en453> My sister wants an option to keep supertux in the middle of the screen, rather to scoll it with a delay...
<paroneayea>    I don't want to walk on something then suddenly appear somewhere else, without any indication...
<wansti>        paroneayea: not if you use them carefully
<wansti>        paroneayea: they can save you from a gap, for example
<en453> paroneayea, neither
<wansti>        instead of falling down, you'll be teleported somewhere else
<sik0fewl>      yeah, it's definitely a worthy feature
<wansti>        it's all stuff that should be used very carefully
<sik0fewl>      and we don't have to accept levels from people that abuse it
<wansti>        yep
<sik0fewl>      as long as wansti doesn't abuse it :)
<wansti>        i'll try not to :-P
<grumbel>       wansti: don't like invisible teleports, stuff should be visible
<MatzeB>        yep visual feedback is important
<MatzeB>        or maybe audio-feedback only
<wansti>        sure, somehow the player should get to know what just happened
<MatzeB>        but some feedback HAS to be there
<wansti>        of course
<en453> audio is not enough...
<paroneayea>    not just what happened, what to predict
<sik0fewl>      yeah, there could be some sort of visual warp effect after the transport is hit
<MatzeB>        grumbel: I just looked at the blowflyer action again, could you explain a bit more what it does?
<MatzeB>        ie. how does tux gain the blowflyer activity?
<wansti>        as i said, an invisible teleporter should be used very carefully (that is, once or twice in
                milestone 2, not more)
<MatzeB>        did you think about these soap-bubbles in some mario games?
<paroneayea>    I still don't see any reason for it..
<MatzeB>        (where you could fly infinitely for a level...)
<wansti>        having the option to do so is definitely good... it's up to the level designers to use them wisely
<paroneayea>    MatzeB: oh, like in mario land 2?
<grumbel>       MatzeB: not sure on the details, it should basically provide a way for to fly, slowly and hard to
<wansti>        grumbel: like the balloons in SMW?
<MatzeB>        grumbel: sounds very similar to the Soap proposal on the site...
<MatzeB>        grumbel: In fact I like the Soap proposal better than this blow-flyer...
<MatzeB>        ah sorry
<MatzeB>        I misread the Soap proposal
<grumbel>       wansti: can't remember baloons in SMW, currently thinking about the flowers in Mario64DS
<MatzeB>        grumbel: so maybe we can place helium bottles around
<MatzeB>        hmm I don't know mario64DS...
<wansti>        me neither
<grumbel>       MatzeB: yes, something like that, just less obvious
<grumbel>       something more abstract
<sendzinka>     i like supertux
<sik0fewl>      soap sounds like bubble bobble
<MatzeB>        a big dinosaur head that breathes :)
<grumbel>       anyway, point of that action is to get 'up' for a limited amount of time
<sik0fewl>      (which I'm all for :)
<wansti>        sounds good
<sendzinka>     yeah!
<wansti>        but they should be a level object not an ability
<paroneayea>    grumbel: ah, so like the P balloon in SMW?
<wansti>        i.e. there's a bubble dispenser somewhere in the level
<sik0fewl>      are we going to make flapping and buttjump permanent abilities? or should they be powerups?
<grumbel>       paroneayea: if just I could remember the baloon...
<en453> Why does the supertux block while it resizes?
<wansti>        grumbel: level six of the star road secret
<MatzeB>        grumbel: this ballon was in mario 2 on the gameboy I think
<MatzeB>        grumbel: some objects was spitting out big soap bubbles you could enter...
<paroneayea>    MatzeB: no, I'm talking about the one in super mario world
<MatzeB>        grumbel: and then you could "fly"...
<paroneayea>    you weren't in a balloon
<paroneayea>    you BLOATED
<MatzeB>        flying in you can always jump no matter if you're on ground or not
<sendzinka>     jak przebazuczyc lies?
<wansti>        MatzeB: we're talking about different balloons now...
<MatzeB>        seems so :)
<wansti>        the balloons from SMW gave you a constant upwards drift
<en453> Is the blocking-when-resizing a design decision or a technical one?
<wansti>        when you pressed down you could go down, but very slowly
<wansti>        blocking-when-resizing?
<en453> yes, when I get the egg and become big
<en453> there is an animation
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<MatzeB>        en453: that's by design but experimental...
<MatzeB>        not sure if we'll keep that
<paroneayea>    wansti: yep, and they were hard to control... sounds very much like the blowflyer grumbel talks
<wansti>        paroneayea: yea
<wansti>        grumbel: play SMW again and see if that's what you thought of when designing the blowflyer
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<wansti>        grumbel: there's a level in the star road secret which had a lot of balloons in it
<TuxthePenguin> hiho people
<TuxthePenguin> long time no see
<TuxthePenguin> or talk
<TuxthePenguin> :P
<wansti>        hi TuxthePenguin
<AlexanderBrock>        Hi Tux
<wansti>        anyway, balloons and bubbles should be level objects, no abilities
<MatzeB>        Hi TuxthePenguin
<wansti>        what new abilities should tux have?
<TuxthePenguin> so whats been discussed so far ;)
<paroneayea>    wansti: highly agreed.. and temporary
<MatzeB>        I think butt-jump is ok to always have when tux is big, is it?
<wansti>        MatzeB: agreed
<grumbel>       yep
<sik0fewl>      MatzeB: sounds good
<MatzeB>        and then we have the "famous" flapping where I'm not sure...
<wansti>        yea, that topic caused a lot of flame wars :)
<sik0fewl>      I personally don't like any of the flapping behaviours so far
<TuxthePenguin> couldn't bubbles help tux float in the air abit ;)
<sik0fewl>      none of them seem "right" to me.. even the one I did
<wansti>        sik0fewl: same here
<MatzeB>        so far I find flapping too powerfull to be a permanent powerup...
<sik0fewl>      MatzeB: same here
<wansti>        i think we should do it like in Yoshis island, but with the possibility to get just a very small
                bit higher than with a jump
<Johnlein>      MatzeB: I'm not sure if flapping is to powerful, you had double and triple jumps in some Mario
<paroneayea>    yes, but those were 3d
<wansti>        double jumps aren't a good idea for supertux
<paroneayea>    and not as much platform
<wansti>        we already tried it, it sucked
<MatzeB>        wansti: from what we've seen you also get a very small bit higher in yoshis island...
<en453> What's the design-decision when the tux hits the bottom of the screen? I may have discovered a bug from
        the cvs version: The tux didn't get immediately kicked, instead he disappeared from screen, walked a bit
        when off screen and then stopped.
<TuxthePenguin> doubel triple jumps are better in 3d games not 2d platform
<MatzeB>        wansti: though it's < than a single tile
<Johnlein>      There has to be a way to get a bit higher then with a normal jump.
<MatzeB>        Johnlein: trampolines
<TuxthePenguin> running jump :p
<wansti>        MatzeB: it should be just so much that you can reach the top of one more tile
<MatzeB>        wansti: why?
<wansti>        so you can use it to get to higher places
<MatzeB>        you can already run for that
<MatzeB>        and we will have trampolines probably
<TuxthePenguin> perhaps what could be done is it works out the nearest tile and if there is a gap tux will land
<wansti>        but flapping is just so annoying when you are hanging on an edge and cannot reach it
<TuxthePenguin> anyone understand what i mean? :\
<wansti>        anyway, let's decide that by doing
<wansti>        i.e.
<sik0fewl>      TuxthePenguin: not I
<TuxthePenguin> oh well, i live in my own little world anyway
<wansti>        implement the flapping like in yoshis island and fiddle around with it a bit
<Johnlein>      Pull up on the edge and jumping of walls maby?
<MatzeB>        I think I'd agree to that :)
<paroneayea>    pull up on edges? hm...
<sik0fewl>      that would be neat :)
<paroneayea>    not sure where I stand on that
<wansti>        well, why not?
<wansti>        but it's something that has to be tried
<TuxthePenguin> how can tux grip :\
<sik0fewl>      it's more of a neatness factor (original), then useful, but I like it
<wansti>        i.e. implement and see if it works
<sik0fewl>      TuxthePenguin: maybe we could give him a pickaxe :)
<TuxthePenguin> or suction pads :p
<Johnlein>      There was a Flintstones jump and run that had that, its not bad.
*       wansti gets himself another beer
<TuxthePenguin> gets him self a trout
*       paroneayea gets himself some more salsa
*       MatzeB is updating the TODO with a new "Actions" section
<en453> It very probably there is a bug where the tux doesn't dye immediately when it falls to the bottom of the
        screen in some places.
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<TuxthePenguin> eh?
<wansti>        let's implement the flapping like in Yoshis island and fiddle around with it afterwards, agreed?
<en453> or maybe it's a secret passage (in the second level)
<TuxthePenguin> agreed
<paroneayea>    if we implement flapping, we'll have to redo a lot of world one, won't we?
<MatzeB>        yep
<wansti>        paroneayea: probably
<MatzeB>        I don't think it needs big changes in world1
<wansti>        paroneayea: but let me worry about that :)
<MatzeB>        as long as you can't reach higher places...
<TuxthePenguin> or....
<TuxthePenguin> dont have flapping in world 1
<wansti>        MatzeB: i'll redesign world1 anyway to match the new abilities, so...
<sik0fewl>      we should have a level editor that let's you edit while you play.. could make fixing world 1
                easier :)
<TuxthePenguin> a new ability in world 2
<paroneayea>    should little tux be able to flap?
<wansti>        paroneayea: good point
<paroneayea>    he's pretty chunky
<TuxthePenguin> maybe little tux can flap and big tux cant
<sik0fewl>      paroneayea: he's less weight than bigtux, though
<TuxthePenguin> big tux to fat to flap
<paroneayea>    seems big tux is getting a lot of abilities little tux doesn't
<wansti>        naaah...
<grumbel>       MatzeB: btw. I think we should get rid of TODO and move all that into the wiki
<MatzeB>        grumbel: ok, we can do that too...
<MatzeB>        I prefer editing with vim, but if most people wanna see it in the wiki...
<grumbel>       thing is it IS already in the wiki, but probally quite outdated there
<TuxthePenguin> i just use pico to edit
<sik0fewl>      TuxthePenguin: pico sucks :)
<TuxthePenguin> :o
<TuxthePenguin> how dare you insult pico
<wansti>        i think small tux should be able to flap like big tux
<MatzeB>        yep I think so too
<sik0fewl>      I think letting both small and big tux flap is best
<wansti>        (just to get you back on tpoic) :-)
<paroneayea>    no editor wars please
<TuxthePenguin> maybe he can flap better as smll tux
<wansti>        nah, let's give them the same ability there
<Johnlein>      It would be a bad idea to split abilities between big and little tux. Either both have them or
                only big Tux.
<wansti>        agreed
<sik0fewl>      TuxthePenguin: that's a good idea, but I don't like the fact that you have to get hit (become
                small) to make it to certain places
<grumbel>       we could also get rid of little-tux completly
<TuxthePenguin> :\
<wansti>        grumbel: no, let's not do that
<en453> grumbel, never :)
<sik0fewl>      grumbel: would one hit mean death, then?
<paroneayea>    actually, grumbel is right
<paroneayea>    if supertux is getting other powerups
<paroneayea>    he already has hit-protection
<sik0fewl>      paroneayea: ah, good poin
<sik0fewl>      *point
<grumbel>       sik0fewl: not sure either energie meter or something else, yoshi island was brilliant in that
                aspect with the baby mario
<wansti>        but the players already got used to small tux
<wansti>        we can't kick him out now
<en453> yes, that's the main point
<paroneayea>    sure we can.
<sik0fewl>      wansti: now would be the best time to kick him out
<TuxthePenguin> where shall he live think of his children :p
<sik0fewl>      the game is still in development
<en453> We shouldn't break backwards compatibility
<paroneayea>    en453: we already are
<wansti>        i'm strongly against kicking small tux out
<wansti>        people like him :)
<NabilS>        me too
<AlexanderBrock>        Players get used to such changes
<TuxthePenguin> im neutral
<MatzeB>        I don't really care either
<wansti>        but there really is no reason to kick him
<paroneayea>    small tux might actually be a problem in the game
<AlexanderBrock>        Remember when Phoenix was renamed to Firebird and later to Firefox?
<grumbel>       sik0fewl: you wouldn't even need to kick him out completly, could all we well integrated into the
<AlexanderBrock>        Nobody cares about these changes now.
<quickflash>    is there a story at this point?
<paroneayea>    quickflash: a very very weak one
<en453> my sister wants the little one !
<paroneayea>    and a sexist one :P
<wansti>        paroneayea: lol
<TuxthePenguin> ooh you said the s word
<TuxthePenguin> :p
<paroneayea>    I honestly hate the capture the princess storyline
<wansti>        yeah, go to hell :)
<TuxthePenguin> oh lets make it modern tux is gay and resucinga  prince
<TuxthePenguin> :p
<wansti>        paroneayea: well at some point we should state that the pprincess can handle herself :)
<Johnlein>      Is the story in Wiki?
<MatzeB>        what we have yes
<wansti>        paroneayea: like, at some point the player takes over penny rescuing herself
<TuxthePenguin> yeah right at the end the princess can slap tux and say wher ehave you been
<wansti>        TuxthePenguin: that's not any better...
<TuxthePenguin> :p
<wansti>        :)
<paroneayea>    actually, wansti, that's a really good idea
<grumbel>       wansti: good one, gives paper-mario feel
<paroneayea>    I always wanted to play as zelda in the zelda games
<Johnlein>      I’d like to work on a story
<paroneayea>    it would also give a good method for two player
<sik0fewl>      yeah, I like the idea of playing as penny for a bit
<quickflash>    so story can use some improvement?
<wansti>        quickflash: yeah
<quickflash>    what tilesets are there besides ice?
<TuxthePenguin> the currenty story line for the 2nd world suggest by me invlves finding 5 jeys
<TuxthePenguin> *keys]
<TuxthePenguin> to unlock the castle door
<grumbel>       the beginning of the story however should stay at it is currentyl
<grumbel>       probally cutscene or so in addition
<wansti>        grumbel: yep
<sik0fewl>      agreed
<paroneayea>    grumbel: fair enough.  I already have a cutscene planned for the beginning, which is quite funny
<TuxthePenguin> yep agreed
<groundwater>   waht format are the cuts going to be?
<wansti>        groundwater: that's the next topic
<wansti>        probably ingame graphics
<MatzeB>        well but we can agree that we want some cutscenes for milestone2?
<paroneayea>    wait
<paroneayea>    I think I have a plan
<sik0fewl>      I think in-game graphics is the best solution for now
<wansti>        MatzeB: yes
<sik0fewl>      MatzeB: yep, I think so
<MatzeB>        and there's another topic we should mention: We need some bosses!
<paroneayea>    the story reverses halfway through
<TuxthePenguin> would anyone do the voice for tux or just text or mixture?
<paroneayea>    except, it's not just rescuing tux...
<sik0fewl>      well.. if we want in-game cutscenes for milestone 2, that means we need to add some scripting
<MatzeB>        TuxthePenguin: voices is bad because you can't translate that
<sik0fewl>      that could be a big task
<wansti>        voices would be cool, but they'd have to be updated constantly with changing/expanding story
<TuxthePenguin> true
<MatzeB>        anyway we can discuss specifics on the cutscenes later
<paroneayea>    nolok takes over tux and makes him evil.. penny has to save him and turn him back
<wansti>        paroneayea: nice idea
<TuxthePenguin> robotux like sonic
<sik0fewl>      paroneayea: I like that idea
<en453> Idea, let's make tux speak in an international pinguin language
<paroneayea>    it'll be a nice, and fun, twist
<groundwater>   voices in different languages would be great
<sik0fewl>      like the sims?
<TuxthePenguin> Esperanto for Penguins
<wansti>        en453: good one
<en453> like the tv-series "pingu"
<MatzeB>        that would be nice if someone produces the sounds
<TuxthePenguin> beaker from the muppets
<paroneayea>    voices, if implemented, should be like in the mario games:
<paroneayea>    little quips which are fun no matter what language you speak
<wansti>        just some gibbrish that sounds like a comical voice
<wansti>        like in gobliiins or something
<TuxthePenguin> great idea
<sik0fewl>      wansti/paroneayea: yep, that's exactly what we'd want
<paroneayea>    I take dibs on nolok's voice
<groundwater>   go for it
<paroneayea>    already have it planned... kinda psuedo-evil (as if trying too hard), kinda nerdy
<TuxthePenguin> I'll have ago at making Tux's but im not really good at sounds
<TuxthePenguin> :p
<wansti>        give it a try
<TuxthePenguin> if not you can just use it as a basis
<wansti>        we should get Larry Ewing to make the voice of tux :-P
<sik0fewl>      are their any features that we *don't* want to have for milestone 2 because of time constraints?
<TuxthePenguin> yeh or ask him what he think it should be like
<TuxthePenguin> hmm *thinks*
<wansti>        sik0fewl: lots of them... probably easier to list those we *do* want
<TuxthePenguin> do: collecting objects such as keys ;)
<sik0fewl>      wansti: well, that's what we're doing now and I think we may be overdoing it without thinking
                about how long it may take
<grumbel>       wansti: P-ballon in SMW is a sucky, blowflyer should be less direct control
<grumbel>       wansti: more like a real ballon and tux only being able to flap a bit to influence the going
<wansti>        grumbel: sounds good
<TuxthePenguin> btw i thought we were going on to bosses
<wansti>        okay, let's discuss bosses
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<NabilS>        I think we sould talk about worldmap first
<wansti>        we already have graphics for a yeti and behaviour for the first appearance of nolok
<en453> yeah, I like the tree!!
<wansti>        grumbel: COOOL!
<en453> reminds me of "hocus", a great dos game
<MatzeB>        yep that yeti picture is very nice :)
<MatzeB>        just need him with angry face
<MatzeB>        oh
<TuxthePenguin> and rough ideas for bosses on forest world
<paroneayea>    as for nolok, first appearance is in his small or big form?
<paroneayea>    remember, nolok can transform
<sik0fewl>      paroneayea: he has small and big forms?
<wansti>        he can take any form he wants
<paroneayea>    when he drinks a potion, he can transform into a stronger form, but his real form is wimpier
<TuxthePenguin> bwhahaha tux resuces Penny and finds out its Nolok
<grumbel>       I would go for bosses being cursed animals/things from the sector
<Johnlein>      It would be cool if the bosses represent SuperTuxKart characters.
<paroneayea>    I agree with grumbel
<AlexanderBrock>        OT: Is there a possibility to get a nightly build by the browser?
<sik0fewl>      grumbel: instead of a transformed Nolok?
<wansti>        grumbel: or nolok hiomself who transformed into that animal
<grumbel>       Johnlein: thats the idea
<Johnlein>      nice
<paroneayea>    wansti: no, I would prefer it to be other characters, not nolok
<TuxthePenguin> How big is Nolok compared to Tux?
<paroneayea> <- small nolok
<wansti>        paroneayea: why?
<paroneayea>    big nolok is this
<AlexanderBrock>        lol. nice !!
<wansti>        okay, i think first boss should be big nolok
<MatzeB>        I also think it would be better to keep nolok for later
<sik0fewl>      I personally don't think we need a small Nolok form
<paroneayea>    all of nolok's statues of himself are of the big form.. because he doesn't want to show off his
                scrawnier form
<sik0fewl>      except maybe at the end of the game
<TuxthePenguin> like wizard of OZZ?
<MatzeB>        so that you can still think of him like a big wizard
<wansti>        i think the first and last boss should be nolok
<MatzeB>        and not like someone that you already killed once
<wansti>        the first boss is a great way to introduce  him
<paroneayea>    there might be two fights with nolok.  The second might be with the small one, actually... but him
                maneuvering some vehicle or something
<wansti>        i thinbk we already agreed on that
<MatzeB>        wansti: we introduce him in the story
<grumbel>       something about the story: nolok captures penny, nolok curses Tux (makes him small, disables
<MatzeB>        wansti: but fighting against him is too early IMO...
<paroneayea>    grumbel: I like that idea
<grumbel>       second world Tux is then freed by noloks curse
<wansti>        MatzeB: but he should at least appear and talk to tux
<grumbel>       end fight might be tux cursing nolok and turning him into small one or so
<wansti>        MatzeB: and then maybe spawn another badguy
<MatzeB>        wansti: in cutscenes maybe :)
<NabilS>        I think Nolok should have followers (recurrent enemies), something like fire breathing lizards
<sik0fewl>      the disable backscrolling thing seems kinda weird
<sik0fewl>      we should be able to enable it in old levels with minimal problems, no?
<wansti>        sik0fewl: yeah...
<paroneayea>    sik0fewl: I can see why:
<paroneayea>    because nolok's castle is closer to the initial starting point
<paroneayea>    and tux can't go that way
<paroneayea>    and once tux leaves that world, he can't go back until the end of the game
<sik0fewl>      paroneayea: ok, that's not a bad idea
<grumbel>       paroneayea: there should always be the ability to go back
<wansti>        grumbel: agreed
<grumbel>       backscrolling could simply be disable on second run
<Johnlein>      For the story, what about if tux gets peny in the first castle form nolok (peny frees herself) and
                you can then chose between peny and tux to get after the fleeing nolok?
<sik0fewl>      second run?
<wansti>        sik0fewl: after you beat first world once
<sik0fewl>      ah
<paroneayea>    Johnlein: I prefer to think that tux will later be captured, and you have to play as penny
<grumbel>       sik0fewl: if you reenter the world/level to collect coins and such
<paroneayea>    maybe in two-player though....
<wansti>        is it possible to implement a playable penny in milestone 2 already? what do you think?
<TuxthePenguin> TWO player is more like mileston 4
<TuxthePenguin> :p
<grumbel>       wansti: no
<paroneayea>    TuxthePenguin: yes, but I'm talking about storyline
<TuxthePenguin> AH
<wansti>        grumbel: guessed so
<grumbel>       wansti: or at least I wouldn't want to have her as fully playable character
<TuxthePenguin> couldn't soem sprites of Penny be made anyway
<grumbel>       having a special level for her might be doable
<sik0fewl>      groundwater: not even for one of the worlds (or half a world)
<sik0fewl>      s/groundwater/grumbel/
<wansti>        grumbel: that'd be cool
<paroneayea>    grumbel: you and I will need to work on penny's design
<grumbel>       but its probally better to leave that to milestone3 and just hint a bit in the story
<sik0fewl>      yeah, penny shouldn't be playable in this milestone
<wansti>        grumbel: depending on wether we get some sprites for penny
<wansti>        but let's make that low priority
<Johnlein>      it It would be nice to have sketched out the storyline before M3
<groundwater>   we should work penny into a test, i've been messing with a penny image
<wansti>        grumbel: cute :)
<TuxthePenguin> needs a pink bow
<TuxthePenguin> P
<wansti>        TuxthePenguin: nah
<wansti>        :)
<TuxthePenguin> :p
<wansti>        the one grumbel made is really cute...
<paroneayea>    grumbel: I'll experiment with drawing a 2d penny
<paroneayea>    based off that design
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<TuxthePenguin> or just make a purple Tux thats not so fat
<TuxthePenguin> :p
<Johnlein>      Bigger bleu eyes would to distinguish her from tux?
<paroneayea>    TuxthePenguin: no, penny needs to be more distinguishably different...
<wansti>        paroneayea: yep
<paroneayea>    like how luigi got in later games
<groundwater>   maybe eyelashes
<grumbel>       pennys shape is more dove-like, less penguin
<paroneayea>    grumbel: okay, I'll keep that in mind
<a_monkey>      for some reason, instead of nice music and sound, i get "CSHSHSHSHSCHSH!!!"
<grumbel> (eyes suck in that one)
<a_monkey>      like tv static
<TuxthePenguin> has a final decision been made what world will come after forest
<TuxthePenguin> or just a loose one
<wansti>        TuxthePenguin: not sure yet
<MatzeB>        TuxthePenguin: that's not important for now I think
<sik0fewl>      TuxthePenguin: no need to talk about that right now
<a_monkey>      anyone know why this is?
<TuxthePenguin> i know but the story in aprt 2 can lead on to it
<sik0fewl>      well.. if we want to transition, then maybe we should talk about it
<TuxthePenguin> i think Ocean like it says in the wiki
<paroneayea>    a cave, maybe.
<wansti>        or industrial, as we already have a music for it :-P
<paroneayea>    all water would be bad
<wansti>        i like ocean, though
<paroneayea>    we'd want a tropical area with lots of water and ocean
<wansti>        tux should be able to swim in ms3
<TuxthePenguin> have metal building like oil rigs
<paroneayea>    wansti: yeah, I agree.. but a tropical area would be better for that
<sik0fewl>      I agree that ocean is a good choice for the next world
<TuxthePenguin> if it is ocean i think we have to decied what kind of ocean
<sik0fewl>      or tropical
<paroneayea>    TuxthePenguin: no need to be specific.  But we need some land around.
<paroneayea>    little islands
<sik0fewl>      tropical islands
<wansti>        sounds good
<sik0fewl>      with water levels in between, etc
<MatzeB>        so leave it tropical islands, but we should really discuss this another time
<wansti>        yes
<sik0fewl>      MatzeB: yep. we're done with that topic.
<wansti>        did be decide on bosses yet?
<TuxthePenguin> yep
<Johnlein>      If ocean then we could need some sand tiles, to simulate something like hoping form island to
<wansti>        we'll have a yeti...
<sik0fewl>      and.. ?
<a_monkey>      what driver does supertux use for sound?
<TuxthePenguin> and for the forest? the stone thing?
<wansti>        and the dummyguy who should be replaced by some other gfx
<paroneayea>    any idea what the yeti does?
<MatzeB>        Yeti has a complete page with behaviour description on the wiki
<sik0fewl>      wiki suggest giant ant
<paroneayea>    ah ok
<a_monkey>      alsa?
<a_monkey>      what?
<paroneayea>    I don't like giant ant idea
<sik0fewl>      paroneayea: same here
<groundwater>   and maybe a fire ant
<MatzeB>        grumbel proposed a giant rock
<MatzeB>        which is probably better than a giant ant
<grumbel>       bottom of Forest page has two suggestions
<TuxthePenguin> and asome tree thing#
<grumbel>       one being rock, other being totem
<en453> a_monkey, What sdl offers?
<NabilS>        And about minibosses?
<MatzeB>        We need specifics on behaviour for them though
<TuxthePenguin> i like the rock but i think its abit to like yeti (big and bulk)
<a_monkey>      hmm. how do i make the sound from supertux not sound like tv static?
<sik0fewl>      what sort of behaviour would the giant rock have?
<MatzeB>        TuxthePenguin: bosses have to be big
<TuxthePenguin> jumping
<MatzeB>        that's why they're bosses :)
<TuxthePenguin> shaking ground
<paroneayea>    or, we could have a fire boss which is destroying the forest... and you have to stop it
<TuxthePenguin> yes but small nimble bosses are harder to hit ;)
<wansti>        a_monkey: sorry we're in a meeting right now... no time for that :-(
<paroneayea>    the little fires could be shot out then
<sik0fewl>      paroneayea: I like that idea
<TuxthePenguin> then a message saev the rainforest
<a_monkey>      wansti: well ok. bye
<--     a_monkey ( has left #supertux ("Oh, hush! I don't like mushy
<sik0fewl>      we should have the little fire guys, like at the bottom of the forest page. the boss should be
                a variation of that little guy
<sik0fewl>      a little bigger, jumps around, fast
<sik0fewl>      *faster
<Johnlein>      For a rock boss, he should be able to throw small boulders and if he jumps the ground shakes so
                that tux can't move.
<wansti>        we also need a first world boss and miniboss
<wansti>        suggestions for that?
<paroneayea>    the rock boss could be miniboss
<groundwater>   fire ant spawns small jumpy fires
<NabilS>        Maybe there could be a level where we have to save the forest from little fire guys
<wansti>        i.e. graphics for dummyguy
<MatzeB>        first world boss is yeti
<TuxthePenguin> i dont think we need miniboss for the ice world
<wansti>        MatzeB: okay, what about a miniboss?
<wansti>        i think there should be one
<MatzeB>        no idea...
<TuxthePenguin> giant frog
<TuxthePenguin> :p
<wansti>        MatzeB: you made badguy coding easy, so there can be a miniboss no problem
<MatzeB>        wansti: it's mostly gfx I think...
<wansti>        something that throws snowballs :)
<MatzeB>        coding is somewhat between 20-50% of the game
<sik0fewl>      doesn't the yeti already do that?
<TuxthePenguin> yes
<MatzeB>        yep
<TuxthePenguin> i think
<en453> who's the talented painter that's going to make the gfx?
<TuxthePenguin> *looks around*
<paroneayea>    grumbel and I can do graphics
<paroneayea>    I've been getting faster
<groundwater>   i throw out ideas too.
<en453> how's your method? do you use a scanner?
<paroneayea>    groundwater could help
<paroneayea>    en453: I did, way back when.. but now I have a wacom tablet
<sik0fewl>      yeah, we also have the newcomers
<paroneayea>    much better :)
<TuxthePenguin> GIMP is my best freind when I draw
<MatzeB>        there are 2 texts from grumbel about graphics
<paroneayea>    that's a good guide, grumbel
<sik0fewl>      any other suggestions for world 2 boss? I'm thinking more about behaviour, not graphics
<grumbel>       sik0fewl: totem should have different stages
<MatzeB>        well graphically I like the big rock...
<TuxthePenguin> how about something like in Mario64
<paroneayea>    you guys, I gotta head to work, but I'm going to be back on in a few minutes... I'll install xchat
<TuxthePenguin> with those stone block guys
<grumbel>       with each hit (or multiple) you defeat a stage
<TuxthePenguin> they stoped then fell on mario
<paroneayea>    I imagine this meeting will still be going in fifteen minutes?
<sik0fewl>      grumbel: that's not a bad idea
<wansti>        paroneayea: probably :)
<sik0fewl>      takes care of the miniboss, too
<grumbel>       sik0fewl: should basically be some kind of grown-up version of the little trees
<paroneayea>    I will bring my waacom tablet to work
<paroneayea>    see you guys soon
<--     paroneayea has quit ("Leaving")
<NabilS>        )
<NabilS>        <TuxthePenguin> GIMP is my best freind when I draw
<NabilS>        <MatzeB> there are 2 texts from grumbel about graphics
<NabilS>        oops
<TuxthePenguin> am i ?
<grumbel>       havn't thought to much about stone behaviour, you need to climb ontop of it and buttjump or so
<NabilS>        don't know what i did
<TuxthePenguin> grumbel that stone one sounds too mcuh like Mario64 :p
<MatzeB>        yep that sounds good
<Johnlein>      For a rock boss, he should be able to throw small boulders and if he jumps the ground shakes so that tux can't move.
<MatzeB>        the stone could shake the ground and stun tux
<NabilS>        Let's maybe choose a boos that has something to do with the storyline
<grumbel>       shaking ground sounds good
<Johnlein>      If tux could pick up stuff he could pick up the boulders and throw them at the big rock boss.
<NabilS>        Hard to program though
<wansti>        not very original, though...
<TuxthePenguin> but what happens when he shakes thre ground
<sik0fewl>      and to kill him he needs to be buttjumped a few times?
<MatzeB>        maybe tux could somehow bring the rock to move backwards... until he final falls down into the
                water or so...
<en453> Should there be "secret" ways of defeating bosses that are difficult to find?
<AlexanderBrock>        nice idea I think
<wansti>        MatzeB: good idea
<sik0fewl>      MatzeB: reminds me of the sand miniboss from sonic & knuckles
<MatzeB>        tux could collect rocks lying around there
<sik0fewl>      you hit his head, he falls backwards and breaks apart
<sik0fewl>      he then rebuilds himself, and you do it again
<MatzeB>        and has to use them to jump on the big rock...
<MatzeB>        and then doing a buttjump...
<en453> Or you have to hit both eyes
<MatzeB>        (ie. tux has to place 2 rocks on top of each other and use that as "ladder")
<Johnlein>      He could just stumble backwards. Breaking apart and rebuilding is a bit unnatural.
<TuxthePenguin> pinty stamaybe rubble falls when he shakes ground and he uses that as the ladder
<wansti>        MatzeB: sounds good
<sik0fewl>      Johnlein: I was describing the behaviour of the sonic & knuckles miniboss :)
<groundwater>   I have to leave, will keep IRC up, - peace.
<MatzeB>        cu
<TuxthePenguin> bye
<wansti>        groundwater: see you later
<MatzeB>        I'll also post a log to the wiki later
<TuxthePenguin> ill post log on fan site too
<TuxthePenguin> :p
<wansti>        :)
<TuxthePenguin> i have lots of things im too lazy to fo
<TuxthePenguin> *do
<TuxthePenguin> got about 8 worlds to add made by people
<TuxthePenguin> too lazy to put them up, but I will
*       wansti yawns
<en453> *yawn
<TuxthePenguin> anwyay where were we
<wansti>        still talking about bosses
<wansti>        i guess
<grumbel>       anybody having ideas for the underground world/ghost forest?
<TuxthePenguin> maybe the minibooss could be a ghost thing
<AlexanderBrock>        The BigRobot won't be implemented, will it?
<TuxthePenguin> ?
<TuxthePenguin> robot?
<sik0fewl>      AlexanderBrock: that's a ways away
<sik0fewl>      AlexanderBrock: definitely not for this milestone
<MatzeB>        ghost forest?
<wansti>        right, the ghost forest
<TuxthePenguin> i think the miniboss should be in the ghost forest
<MatzeB>        what's the connection to the "normal forest"?
<wansti>        we had the idea that  the forest should turn into a ghost forest at some point
<sik0fewl>      MatzeB: the deeper parts of the forest are going to be haunted
<TuxthePenguin> spiders
<TuxthePenguin> :P
<wansti>        how should be do it?
<grumbel>       MatzeB: just some other tileset to get the look more interesting
<sik0fewl>      MatzeB: to make things less monotonous
<MatzeB>        sounds good
<wansti>        we still need to explain it in the story
<en453> Offtopic: "Warning: frame out of range: 1/1 at jumpy/left-middle" are these warning a high priority tofix?
<MatzeB>        so this would feature underground levels then?
<MatzeB>        or just haunted/darker levels?
<wansti>        also, there was the idea of transforming the whole forest into a haunted one at some point
<sik0fewl>      we could darken the tiles and use the background by groundwater
<TuxthePenguin> maybe owls
<TuxthePenguin> owl noises
<wansti>        like after beating the star road in SMW where some tiles changed
<TuxthePenguin> also maybe the forest would become more dense in the ghost forest
<MatzeB>        so we're talking about dense/haunted forests and not underground worlds
<grumbel>       TuxthePenguin: ghost forest would be mainly completly black in the background
<wansti>        we also have the ability to add a transparent foreground layer for fog etc
<grumbel>       MatzeB: both forest and ghost forest would be underground-able
<sik0fewl>      wansti: yeah
<sik0fewl>      wansti: I think it's the current forest test level
<wansti>        yep
<MatzeB>        grumbel: well sure, but it's not a 100% cave level
<MatzeB>        with opengl we coudl do nice lighting effects in the dark forest ;-)
<grumbel>       that depends on the level designer, leave out the trees add some tiles on-top and you have a cave
<grumbel>       speaking about OpenGL, anybody against that?
<grumbel>       OpenGL-only I mean
<wansti>        not sure about that
<TuxthePenguin> no, altough im not that good a programmer
<wansti>        we'll exclude a lot of platforms SuperTux currently runs on
<wansti>        but on the other hand...
<MatzeB>        which platforms are this exactly?
<TuxthePenguin> you mean palm ones?
<wansti>        MatzeB: handhelds and older PC's
<MatzeB>        I doube we can keep supporting handhelds anyway
<grumbel>       wansti: it doesn't 'run' on handhelds
<grumbel>       it compiles
<wansti>        MatzeB: yeah, probably
<grumbel>       5-10fps != fun
<wansti>        grumbel: heh... good point :)
<TuxthePenguin> equals fun if your a turtle
<wansti>        well, i guess it's okay to do it opengl only
<NabilS>        yes
<grumbel>       and anybody with a windows to dual boot into will have the game up and running anyway, even with
                quite old hardware
<MatzeB>        macosx also has opengl drivers...
<wansti>        grumbel: most linux users can run OpenGL games, too
<MatzeB>        so we should reach 98% of the audience I guess...
<TuxthePenguin> and the other 2% probably wont want supertux anyway
<MatzeB>        I think most linux users can run opengl games these days...
<TuxthePenguin> :p
<wansti>        MatzeB: not 98% but more than 80% would be my guess
<MatzeB>        wansti: so far noone on the ML complained...
<MatzeB>        wansti: except the handheld guy...
<wansti>        MatzeB: i remember some more complaints but i'm not sure...
<MatzeB>        and I personally know noone who wouldn't be able to run the game while I know ~10-15 people who are
                able to run it with opengl
<TuxthePenguin> well supertux isn't really deisgned to go on a handheld so what would you expect
<MatzeB>        wansti: it's always complaints about potential other people...
<grumbel>       those that complain, complain theoretical anyway. its not like "*I* have an handheld and play the
                game", its always " there might be people with handhelds... lala"
<MatzeB>        sure there will be a few, but it'll be a real minority
<wansti>        MatzeB: okay then, let's go for opengl only... but we really have to compensate for that, then
<wansti>        i.e. use lighing effects and such
<Johnlein>      every PC after 98 should have some form of openGL
<MatzeB>        well we can keep the current code for now
<grumbel>       one thing to implement would be starting supertux in different resolution, just letting opengl
                scale up the graphics (glScale() somewhere at start)
<MatzeB>        but we can freely (ab-)use opengl now that this is decided :)
<grumbel>       would like to see how 320x240 supertux performs in Mesa
<wansti>        yep :)
<en453> Then, rotating sprites becomes a breeze!
<wansti>        how about the ingame editor? do we still need it with flexlay around?
<AlexanderBrock>        I tried to get the CVS-Version with WinCVS, but it didn't work:
<AlexanderBrock>        cvs -z9 -x -d " login" login
<AlexanderBrock>        Logging in to login
<AlexanderBrock>        cvs [login aborted]: authorization failed: server rejected access to
                        /cvsroot/supertux login for user anonymous
<AlexanderBrock>        ***** CVS exited normally with code 1 *****
<grumbel>       never used it
<MatzeB>        I would say drop the ingame editor and make sure we have a statically compiled flexlay that works
<grumbel>       video of the blowflyer in mario64ds
<wansti>        MatzeB: agreed... i never used the ingame editor either
<grumbel>       28mb, mencoder crashed, couldn't make it smaller
<AlexanderBrock>        Could anyone tell me how to get the CVS-Version=
*       wansti is downloading the video
<Johnlein>      that avi is big
<AlexanderBrock>        ?
<MatzeB>        AlexanderBrock: look at my /query
<grumbel>       doesn't work in my mplayer either, but works fine in xine
<grumbel>       is there any other video decoder beside mencoder?
<grumbel>       preferable something that just works and doesn't need two dozens of options to even start
<MatzeB>        no idea
<wansti>        so can we agree about dropping the ingame editor?
<TuxthePenguin> not sure
<wansti>        or is it worth keeping?
<MatzeB>        well blacksheep won't like it...
<wansti>        MatzeB: yeah, he put a lot of work into it...
<MatzeB>        he spent lots of time for it, so he'll surely be angry...
<TuxthePenguin> well lots of people want to make their own levels and it will be easier with ingame editor
<wansti>        true...
<TuxthePenguin> for them
<MatzeB>        well 1 important point is that flexlay has to be there for prime time
<en453> Is it a lot of work mantaining it?
<grumbel>       biggest problem with the buildin editor is that it abuses a bunch of classes from the game itself,
                meaning that with changes in the game it will break and need fixing
<MatzeB>        and has to work flawlessly
<wansti>        okay, let's try to keep it, but only if it's not too much work
<MatzeB>        wansti: I don't want to keep it :)
-->     paroneayea ( has joined #supertux
<TuxthePenguin> perhaps the first realease can be without editor
<paroneayea>    what the heck
<TuxthePenguin> then 0.2.1 can have ditor put bakc in
<paroneayea>    xchat on windows is now shareware not free software...
<TuxthePenguin> :\
<MatzeB>        I'm just thinking how to convince blacksheep...
<Johnlein>      A prebuild flexlay for download is just as good as an in game editor.
<grumbel>       I would say #ifdef the editor away move it into seperate directory and leave it there for the
<wansti>        MatzeB: i don't want to maintain it, but i won't mind if it's there, although i prefer flexlay
<wansti>        grumbel: good idea
<MatzeB>        I #ifdefed it twice already :)
<paroneayea>    looks like we're talking about editors atm
<paroneayea>    anything else I miss?
<MatzeB>        blacksheep fixed it every time ;-)
<quickflash>    is CVS much different than 0.1.2 ?
<grumbel>       quickflash: yes
<wansti>        MatzeB: well if he can bring the editor up-to-date there's no reason not to keep it, right?
<TuxthePenguin> yes
<MatzeB>        maybe we should write him an e-mail explaining it again
<sik0fewl>      paroneayea: only the official build is. I think you can find unofficial GPL builds.
<paroneayea>    very yes
<grumbel>       quickflash: has a whole bunch of more or less unfinished new features
<MatzeB>        wansti: it's still some minor stuff that we have to do twice...
<paroneayea>    sik0fewl: ah, okay, I'll look...
<MatzeB>        wansti: like having write() functions for each object
<grumbel>       quickflash: the content is still mostly the same
<paroneayea>    oh, and, uhm... I WAS supposed to be at work two hours ago...
<TuxthePenguin> :p
<wansti>        paroneayea: oops :)
<en453> I am supposed to study :P
<paroneayea>    oh well, nobody's here, and probably nobody does
<paroneayea>    wer
<paroneayea>    er
<paroneayea>    was
<quickflash>    is the windows piece inc cvs compiled under vc?
<quickflash>    err vc++
<MatzeB>        quickflash: no cross-compiled from linux
<grumbel>       quickflash: cross-compiled with mingw
<paroneayea>    I doubt vc++ would work well
<Johnlein>      Of topic: What happened to the libsupertux idea? Is it dead?
<MatzeB>        also compiles in msys on win32 though
<grumbel>       Johnlein: I hope so
<MatzeB>        Johnlein: I think so
<MatzeB>        that was mostly tobgles idea
<en453> What was it?
<MatzeB>        and tobgle hasn't shown up for some time
<Johnlein>      good
<paroneayea>    and tobgle has really left the project
<paroneayea>    I think
<paroneayea>    hence the new maintainers
<MatzeB>        didn't smeone mail tobgle?
<paroneayea>    I did
<TuxthePenguin> what happened he just dissapaeard
<paroneayea>    he never responded
<MatzeB>        did he say something for his plans?
<MatzeB>        paroneayea: who added the maintainers to then?
<wansti>        do we need a new "official" project leader or can we do without one?
<paroneayea>    MatzeB: kendrick
<paroneayea>    wansti: we can do without it
<paroneayea>    we're doing fine now
<wansti>        true
<paroneayea>    the real feud was originally between tobgle and grumbel
<MatzeB>        wansti: if someone does exceptionally more work then the others, then he'll probably be leader
<MatzeB>        wansti: but this really isn't the case at the moment
<wansti>        i like it that way...
<MatzeB>        and it would only be leader in the sense that he can simply make facts :)
<MatzeB>        (by doing the stuff)
<paroneayea>    we're doing very community-minded development
<sik0fewl>      I overcooked my noodles :(
<TuxthePenguin> let there be no leader lets be communist
<paroneayea>    TuxthePenguin: that's not communism
<sik0fewl>      anarchism? :)
<Johnlein>      anarchisem is what it is
<TuxthePenguin> did'nt say that was communism
<TuxthePenguin> :P
<MatzeB>        well do we have other important topics to discuss?
<wansti>        okay let's go back to Supertuxism now :-)
<paroneayea>    anarchy is greatly misunderstood, actually... gandhi was technically a communist
<paroneayea>    er
<MatzeB>        I think most important stuff has been discussed...
<paroneayea>    anarchist
<paroneayea>    MatzeB: not entirely
<sik0fewl>      how about the worldmap?
<wansti>        how about worldmaps
<wansti>        right :)
<Johnlein>      scripting is important
<MatzeB>        what about the worldmaps?
<TuxthePenguin> jinx
<sik0fewl>      wansti: good question :)
<MatzeB>        Johnlein: might we discuss scripting another time?
<wansti>        do we want a worldmap inventory?
<MatzeB>        no
<paroneayea>    groundwater made some good progress, but it needs much more work
<Johnlein>      ok
<NabilS>        I think there should be secret levels
<wansti>        MatzeB: why not disccuss it now?
<wansti>        NabilS: yep
<sik0fewl>      I'm also against worldmap inv
<Johnlein>      there is always the mailinglist :)
<en453> NabilS, yeah, like wolfstein
<MatzeB>        well ok, if you want we can discuss scripting a bit after worldmaps :)
<quickflash>    so what was the decided layout of the world at first?
<MatzeB>        if someone explains me what there is to discuss about worldmaps :)
<wansti>        paroneayea: worldmap needs to be tilable, like the first one... so we can build custom maps
<quickflash>    icemap first, then what
<Johnlein>      worldmap inv was rather useles in SM3
<paroneayea>    are we going to stick with this "keys" idea?
<sik0fewl>      I think the worldmap needs to be less straightforward than in the iceworld
<MatzeB>        paroneayea: I think so
<NabilS>        Secret levels, like in smw
<sik0fewl>      multiple paths instead of just one
<wansti>        sik0fewl: yep
<paroneayea>    I don't think it is that good.  If we are going to do that, let's do it with gems
<MatzeB>        yes multiple paths would be good, but that already works anyway
<paroneayea>    it's much more nautral, and fitting with the forest
<wansti>        there should be triggers like the "!" blocks in SMW
<MatzeB>        paroneayea: gems to unlock the castle?
<TuxthePenguin> magic gems
<TuxthePenguin> :\
<paroneayea>    MatzeB: sure.  Put them in the spots, and it opens it up.  But still, I think the keys/gems idea
                is kind of unnecessary
<paroneayea>    maybe for the last world
<paroneayea>    or second to last
<Johnlein>      I would like the wordmap to get really complex at some point, there is a straight way to do things
                 but many hidden areas and so on.
<paroneayea>    it would be good
<MatzeB>        paroneayea: it's not really collecting them or something
<MatzeB>        paroneayea: it's just a bit of story for the cutscenes
<MatzeB>        paroneayea: 1 idea we had is that the very first level on the worldmap is the castle
<paroneayea>    in the meanwhile, I agree with wansti.. let's implement something which could open up a secret
                area, or new ability
<MatzeB>        paroneayea: but when you enter it tux stops at a big door and can't enter it before he has all keys
<MatzeB>        paroneayea: so he has to leave the level and do the others
<wansti>        MatzeB: good idea, i'll keep that in mind
<TuxthePenguin> anf fights a boss to get a key
<TuxthePenguin> *and
<wansti>        i also think that the worldmap has to look more like the levels
<sik0fewl>      MatzeB: I think it's a godd idea, but it would be better for the final world
<wansti>        i.e. caves on the worldmap where there are cave levels etc
<paroneayea>    I agree with sik0fewl
<paroneayea>    I think the fire monster and stone boss are great places for cutscenes
<sik0fewl>      I think keys for single doors on the worldmap are an okay idea, though
<paroneayea>    the stone monster could be blocking tux's way
<wansti>        paroneayea: by the time we get to code the last world, we'll probably have a lot of other ideas,
                so why not do it now?
<en453> Is there any code for bosses right now?
<quickflash>    how do you plan on implementing the cutscenes?
<quickflash>    drawing them?
<sik0fewl>      so that opening a door on the worldmap lets your proceed to the rest of the world (or a secret
                part of it, etc)
<paroneayea>    quickflash: that's discussed next, isn't it?
<Johnlein>      The keys for the final world could be hidden in all the other worlds. But you would have to be
                able to return to previous levels.
<wansti>        quickflash: ingame cutscenes
<wansti>        probably...
<MatzeB>        en453: some general code for implementing badguys
<paroneayea>    Johnlein: wait, how about there's a secret world?
<MatzeB>        en453: I started hacking on yeti code here, but didn't put that into cvs yet
<paroneayea>    openable with all the gems?
<Johnlein>      how about lots of secret worlds?
<en453> quickflash We have dialup users, hey!
<TuxthePenguin> gems soudnt o mcuh like Sonic
<Johnlein>      supertux isn't limited by SNES Rom
<paroneayea>    gems are universal.
<MatzeB>        Johnlein: hiding keys for the last level earlier is not good
<sik0fewl>      sonic's chaotic emeralds were to give sonic superpowers
<sik0fewl>      we're talking about unlocking doors
<MatzeB>        Johnlein: it really annoys you as a player if you can't find a key
<MatzeB>        and have to play all the levels again
<grumbel>       wansti: it doesn't work much good to have the worldmap mirror the levels more closely
<paroneayea>    MatzeB: but it's fun if it opens up a secret, optional world
<paroneayea>    a bonus world
<Johnlein>      ok but hiden stuff makes a game more interesting
<paroneayea>    not the final stuff
<MatzeB>        for secret additional stuff sure
<grumbel>       wansti: since you end up either having a bunch of level with the same theme in a row or you simply
                don't have much place to visualize the level on worldmap
<MatzeB>        just not for the main storyline
<--     NabilS ( has left #supertux
<paroneayea>    hold on guys, I have to set up the library...
<wansti>        grumbel: okay, good point
<paroneayea>    brb
<grumbel>       wansti: I agree that it would be a nice thing to have, but its not throuble free to get
<wansti>        grumbel: sure... but it could be a guideline for artists and level designers to get as close as
<Johnlein>      Ok, the main storyline should be streamlined. But some hidden stuff should be allowed, you had to
                find hidden ways in Super Mario World to. If everything's in the open there is no challenge.
<wansti>        i.e. make a lighter level where there's a light spot on the map and design the worldmap according
                 to available tiles
<wansti>        if i get to design the levels, there'll be lots of hidden stuff... i love secrets :-)
<paroneayea>    back
<paroneayea>    man my job rocks
<wansti>        so don't worry about it :)
<paroneayea>    I sit around, working on projects, and get paid for it
<wansti>        paroneayea: sounds good... do you have jobs available there? :)
<grumbel>       wansti: I would cut back a little bit on the secrets
<grumbel>       or at least do them differently then in milestone1
<wansti>        grumbel: like how?
<wansti>        in ms1, the possibilities were rather limited...
<MatzeB>        we could do it like "bonus chalenges" ie. trying to collect all coins in a level
<grumbel>       wansti: places hard to reach instead of simply 'transparent' walls
<MatzeB>        or beating a level in a certain time
<wansti>        grumbel: yes i will... it was just very hard to do otherwise in ms1
<TuxthePenguin> time trials are good for multiplater
<grumbel>       ie. more stuff where you see that there is a secret, but don't directly know how to get it
<grumbel>       wansti: yep, milestone1 was rather limited there
<paroneayea>    so... what should I work on drawing at the moment?  Penny, or plans for a fire boss?
<TuxthePenguin> maybe introduce Tux's brother: Rox :p
<wansti>        grumbel: that's what i have in mind for ms2
<paroneayea>    or soemthing else?
<Johnlein>      Time trials would be nice with sliding :)
<grumbel>       paroneayea: penny
<grumbel>       ok, something else, anybody wanna migrate to SVN?
<sik0fewl>      grumbel: I'm all for it
<wansti>        grumbel: anytime, if it's possible
<Johnlein>      tux rox?
<MatzeB>        do we have an SVN repo?
<MatzeB>        I really don't care if we have SVN or CVS
<wansti>        snv is way better than cvs
<grumbel>       not at, but berlios has plenty of them
<sik0fewl>      does that mean we want to move the project to berlios, or just the repo?
<MatzeB>        for me cvs and svn are pretty much the same in practice
<Johnlein>      I have an easyer time geting suff from SVN then CVS
<MatzeB>        but if someone wants to convert, go ahead
<MatzeB>        we can move the whole project then I guess...
<wansti>        yeah, everything else would be confusing
<wansti>        either move everything or nothing
<TuxthePenguin> just move it all to SVN
<grumbel>       would also give us a 'supertux' project name, not a 'super-tux' one :)
<sik0fewl>      grumbel: good point :)
<wansti>        yep :)
<TuxthePenguin> that other supertux project never got off the ground
<TuxthePenguin> :p
<sik0fewl>      we should probably talk to bill and tobgle before moving the project though
<wansti>        TuxthePenguin: what other supertux project?
<sik0fewl>      wansti: the one with the "supertux" SF name
<sik0fewl>      started by James Gregory, I thik
<quickflash>    grumbel, where are your tuxcart models?
<grumbel>       quickflash: somewhere in tmp/
<wansti>        sik0fewl: never knew there was one...
<en453> when would the cvs 2 svn change be made in your opinion?
<sik0fewl>      wansti: the project hasn't been touched in years and now redirects to this project
<grumbel>       en453: real soon I guess
<MatzeB>        grumbel: well just do the transition I'd say
<grumbel>       I could register a project at berlios and once that is ready we could move
<wansti>        okay
<sik0fewl>      grumbel: like I said, we should probably talk to Bill and tobgle first, though
<TuxthePenguin> wansti: it was supposed to be called: SuperTux adventures by
<grumbel>       just need to coordinate the cvs move a bit so that people don't commit into the old repo
<MatzeB>        just announce it on the ML when you're about to moving the repos
<MatzeB>        so that we don't miss changes we did in between the move
<wansti>        TuxthePenguin: yeah, just saw it
<en453> Do you have some suggestion where / what files I should start hacking the source to produce some patch?
<en453> I'm really new to supertux
<grumbel>       ok
<MatzeB>        en453: look at the TODO in the wiki
<wansti>        en453: depends on what you want to do
<MatzeB>        en453: ro fix some bugs you find
<MatzeB>        well do you want to talk more about scripting/cutscenes?
<sik0fewl>      first we should decide if we want to have one big worldmap, or split them up into multiple
<sik0fewl>      for each world
<MatzeB>        we can split them I think and have some teleporters or something to switch worldmaps
<quickflash>    grumbel, do you have a nice blown up frontview and sideview of Tux from supertux?
<MatzeB>        or simply a road that goes to the edge of the screen...
<Johnlein>      what scripting language i would like to know
<grumbel>       quickflash: no
<sik0fewl>      MatzeB: that would work. is there any disadvantage to having one big worldmap, though?
<MatzeB>        sik0fewl: well it's harder to keep in sync maybe...
<sik0fewl>      MatzeB: how do you mean?
<MatzeB>        sik0fewl: I mean editing them gets easier...
<MatzeB>        we're done with worldmaps now?
<grumbel>       the special thing is not that he is dead, but that you had reports that he is dying
<sik0fewl>      ok, I think we should stick with multiple worldmaps, as Matze says
<wansti>        MatzeB: think so
<sik0fewl>      on to scripting..
<MatzeB>        about scripting I think that we should do it sometime
<grumbel>       most often you just have little notes 'random famous person of the past who nobody remembers
                nowadays is dead'
<sik0fewl>      I think it's agreed that Lua is the language to use.
<sik0fewl>      I think the biggest question is "when?"
<MatzeB>        sik0fewl: not really...
<grumbel>       contra lua
<Johnlein>      scripting is nice as long as its not scheme
<MatzeB>        sik0fewl: it would allow to make levels/cutscenes a bit more dynamic
<sik0fewl>      contra lua?
<en453> lua
<Johnlein>      lua is good
<MatzeB>        sik0fewl: something like this collecting keys stuff can be done in scripts
<MatzeB>        without the need to "hardcode" the story into the game
<sik0fewl>      MatzeB: yeah, scripting could add a lot of useful stuff
<Johnlein>      grumble: exotic
<MatzeB>        well for the scripting language I'd like to have something simple
<wansti>        grumbel: never heard of squirrel
<MatzeB>        and something that can easily be embedded in our c++ app
<MatzeB>        I played a bit around with lua but didn't like the absence of OO stuff...
<sik0fewl>      yep, easy embedding is important
<MatzeB>        makes it really hard to integrate into supertux because of that
<grumbel>       wansti: its rather new, done by some person who worked on the lua part of farcry
<sik0fewl>      OO stuff can be done with Lua, but it is more tedious
<MatzeB>        grumbel: sounds interesting...
<grumbel>       the problem with scripting is that you have to find out what exactly to script
<wansti>        grumbel: i see
<MatzeB>        yep
<en453> Is it worthy?
<grumbel>       flexlay for example is 17'000 lines of code and 30'000! lines of wrapper code
<MatzeB>        we should start with less scripting I think and try to do more scripting in time...
<grumbel>       I wouldn't want to write that manually
<paroneayea>    grumbel: do you use paintbrush or airbrush to color in your characters?
<Johnlein>      arg that lots o wrapper
<grumbel>       paroneayea: yep
<sik0fewl>      there's also LuaPlus (never used it myself)
<paroneayea>    no I mean, which one predominantly
<MatzeB>        grumbel: you've never seen the binding for crystalspace ;-) ~300000 lines of code and a .cpp file
                that takes nearly a minute to compile...
<paroneayea>    so I can try to match your style better
<grumbel>       bindings really tend to get ugly when you want to make the whole class hierachie available
<MatzeB>        I assume it depends a bit on the language and how you do the embedding anyway...
<MatzeB>        swig surely generates lots of code
<grumbel>       so if we ever do scripting it should be very focused on doing something simple
<MatzeB>        yep
<wansti>        first of all, let's discuss what exactly we want to use scripting for
<MatzeB>        creating a few wrapper classes for scripting might be a good idea
<MatzeB>        we should think that non-programmers will write scripts
<Johnlein>      I guess the question would be what should be scripted.
<sik0fewl>      eventually badguys could be implemented as scripts
<MatzeB>        keep the system simple and do the complicated stuff in c++
<TuxthePenguin> im just a noob at c++
<grumbel>       sik0fewl: no, badguys should be done in C++
<sik0fewl>      grumbel: why's that?
<MatzeB>        sik0fewl: about the badguys I'm not sure anymore
<MatzeB>        sik0fewl: it's relatively complex code...
<grumbel>       sik0fewl: because badguys need almost full access to the class hierachy
<MatzeB>        nice candidates would be cutscenes
<grumbel>       triggers is the obvious thing to script
<sik0fewl>      yeah, cutscenes for sure
<MatzeB>        or special stuff that happens when you hit a trigger
<sik0fewl>      and triggers
<Johnlein>      Graphics should probably be scripted, animations to maybe.
<grumbel>       on_tux_enter_some_region { activate_badguy(1,2,3); ... }
<MatzeB>        ways in the worldmap that suddenly open up
<grumbel>       Johnlein: graphics is already 'scripted' via the datafiles
<Johnlein>      aso
<MatzeB>        Johnlein: for animations take a look at data/images/supertux.strf
<paroneayea>    done with penny.. hold on, moving my laptop to the latest ethernet cable so I can upload it...]
<en453> or on_tux_here(destroy_blocks(coords(34,5), coords (34,6)))
<Johnlein>      Is there any documentation on the supertux source structure?
<wansti>        btw, we should put all those files into a "scrtipt" folder
<MatzeB>        Johnlein: a little bit no the wiki, but not really much
<sik0fewl>      are we still loading all badguy textures separate from the rest of the badguy implementation?
<TuxthePenguin> a beta version of penny eh paraoneayea :P
<MatzeB>        Johnlein: maybe I can give a short tour after the meeting...
<MatzeB>        sik0fewl: no
<grumbel>       wansti: ack, not sure if script is the right name, but currently they are a bit deep down hidden
<wansti>        we'll need to clean up the dir structure anyway
<wansti>        there are some things we don't need anymore as well
<MatzeB>        ok I'll write that into the wiki then
<en453> MatzeB, that would be helpful
<MatzeB>        scripting for triggers and cutscenes
<MatzeB>        and that we take a look at squirrel
<wansti>        first priority should be to keep zthe scripting simple
<TuxthePenguin> can i ask a a question, what kind of Tux talking noise, should Tux have? a meepin? (meeeep mi mee
                mep meee meee mi mep)?
<paroneayea>    quick and dirty, but...
<wansti>        paroneayea: she's cute :)
<Johnlein>      MatzeB: the stuff under game engine in the wiki?
<paroneayea>    not meeping.. maybe like, "wah!" when hit
<MatzeB>        Johnlein: yes
<paroneayea>    wansti: thanks :)
<paroneayea>    grumbel: comments?
<TuxthePenguin> paroneayea nice
<wansti>        TuxthePenguin: or "mike mike" like the seagulls in "finding nemo" :)
<paroneayea>    I need to fix the feet
<MatzeB>        TuxthePenguin: this sounds from the "pingu" TV series would be great...
<paroneayea>    and this is just a mockup, but...
<TuxthePenguin> never watched finding nemo
<MatzeB>        TuxthePenguin: I wonder if I can find it somewhere...
<TuxthePenguin> yes ive seen pingu
<TuxthePenguin> :p
<grumbel>       btw: I think we need to cleanup the Wiki a lot
<wansti>        TuxthePenguin: no honestly, something that sounds like a real penguin in some way
<wansti>        grumbel: yep
<grumbel>       it currently has far to many pages with just a sentance or two
<TuxthePenguin> altough that would annoy me pingu noises
<grumbel>       and too much duplicate and confusing stuff
<TuxthePenguin> pingu is meant to be some little kiddy penguin
<grumbel>       ie. where are bosses listed? Forest, ForestAndGuys, BadGuys, Bosses?
<wansti>        grumbel: agreed, wiki needs a major cleanup
<Johnlein>      Do I need an account to edit the supertux wiki?
<MatzeB>        hmm yes merging some pages might be a good idea
<MatzeB>        Johnlein: no
<wansti>        anyone willing to do it? :)
<en453> how would it be with little-tux talking like pingu and big tux talking mor "matruely"?
<grumbel>       Johnlein: only for uploading you need one, but account helps to know who did what
<wansti>        en453: yeah, different sounds for small and big tux are a good idea
<wansti>        don't need to be much different, though, maybe just a deeper pitch for big tux
<MatzeB>        Johnlein: you can create an account without giving your e-mail so it shouldn't hurt anyway
<Johnlein>      ok thanks
<MatzeB>        though I may change that soon if we keep getting spam in the wiki...
<grumbel>       should we move discared ideas to a 'Discarded' page or just delete them in wiki?
<MatzeB>        in general I'd say delete them
<wansti>        grumbel: discarded page, and clean that out from time to time
<en453> a spammer could just make tons of yahoo-mails...
<grumbel>       wansti: ACK
<MatzeB>        but when you expect lots of people to provide them again you might better move them to a discarded
<wansti>        MatzeB: that's the point
<Johnlein>      If I try to sing in as a new user nothing happens on the wiki
<wansti>        TODO: add "cleaning the wiki" to the TODO :)
<paroneayea> <- so, should I try making an actual
                sprite out of this, or what?
<grumbel>       paroneayea: beak should probally more dove like, less duck like
<paroneayea>    okay
<wansti>        paroneayea: she's really cute :) so why not make her a sprite? :)
<grumbel>       beside that its nice
<paroneayea>    something bugs me about the feet, but I don't know what :(
<grumbel>       paroneayea: to wide behind
<grumbel>       would fall
<paroneayea>    ah, that's it...
<wansti>        paroneayea: maybe put the beak just a little higher...?
<TuxthePenguin> ive done a quick tux sound ill upload it to a sever
<TuxthePenguin> brb
<paroneayea>    wansti: ah, you're right, higher beak looks nicer
<paroneayea>    maybe her neck is too high too
<MatzeB>        as we've been on the code: I read something like "Major cleanup required" on the wiki?
<MatzeB>        can someone tell me more about this?
<wansti>        MatzeB: someone stated that the code was really confusing and contained a lot of hacks
<wansti>        i guess it was blacksheep and myself#
<MatzeB>        that nearly sounds like me :)
<wansti>        ...and you :)
<MatzeB>        but really I don't see any fundamental flaw at the moment... except I'm still not happy with
                collision detection...
<wansti>        MatzeB: so, what is the state of the code right now?
<wansti>        MatzeB: lots of bugs still unfixed....
<MatzeB>        sure, that needs more work
<TuxthePenguin> what do you think of this for sound
<MatzeB>        there are some collision detection related bugs that I'm not sure at the moment how to handle
<wansti>        MatzeB: about fundamental flaws, i have no idea... but i didn't see any
<MatzeB>        anyway the general class hirarchy/object system is good now IMO
<wansti>        TuxthePenguin: sounds nice... for small tux, just pitch it a little higher
<en453> TuxthePenguin neat
<wansti>        TuxthePenguin: how did you create it?
<TuxthePenguin> my own voice saying murp murp and increased it sped by 100%
<TuxthePenguin> :p
<wansti>        hehe :-P
<en453> That's how I always do such things also
<MatzeB>        hmm 1 topic we also had were cutscenes
<MatzeB>        TuxthePenguin: sound is nice
<TuxthePenguin> hey now im the official voice for tux :p
<MatzeB>        TuxthePenguin: a bit noisy in the background
<MatzeB>        but the direction is good :)
<TuxthePenguin> sorry had stuff going on
<TuxthePenguin> like poepl next door
<wansti>        TuxthePenguin: maybe clean it out a little and send it to the ml, so we can add it to cvs
<TuxthePenguin> im not really good at sounds so have no idea how to
<TuxthePenguin> :p
<wansti>        TuxthePenguin: also make a higher version for small tux, as i said
<TuxthePenguin> i can do that fine
<MatzeB>        paroneayea: you had a new intro cutscene in mind you said? could you tell me more?
<wansti>        TuxthePenguin: we can always replace it with something better later on :-P
<TuxthePenguin> :(
<TuxthePenguin> :p
<wansti>        TuxthePenguin: just kidding :)
<TuxthePenguin> who would have thought me saying murp murp makes a s goo tux sound
<wansti>        TuxthePenguin: discovering interesting new abilities feels nice, doesn't it? :-P
<wansti>        :)
<TuxthePenguin> :\ i expect to be payed £50 an hour for this
<TuxthePenguin> :P
<wansti>        anyway... cutscenes:
<wansti>        TuxthePenguin: okay, if you pay me the same for the music, matze for the code, grumbel for the
                graphics as well as everyone else who worked on supertux... fine with me :)
<wansti>        cutscenes now :)
<--     Coder96 has quit ("Leaving")
<TuxthePenguin> wansti: that would me we end up with nothing as we just give back what we are payed :p
<paroneayea>    MatzeB: sure.. the idea was kind of that Tux and Penny are sitting, having picnic (or whatever)
                and having good time, Nolok comes up behind him and takes out this mallet, looks at it, quickly
                puts it back and takes out much bigger mallet, and smashes tux on the head.  Then he casts a spell
                at penny, which kind of freezes her in place, then another at tux (removing his ability to scroll
                backwards), drinks a potion which gives him wings, an
<paroneayea>    d flies away with penny (struggling.. he's not the strongest guy on earth in his smaller form)
<en453> How is the current implementation, is any implement. skeleton here?
<wansti>        TuxthePenguin: exactly :)
<MatzeB>        paroneayea: sounds good
<MatzeB>        paroneayea: so this would need a few new graphics...
<wansti>        paroneayea: sounds rather violent...
<wansti>        paroneayea: but okay, if nicely drawn
<paroneayea>    wansti: in a cartoon style smashing someone on the head with a hammer.
<MatzeB>        en453: for cutscenes no
<paroneayea>    I think it happened in kirby... it wasn't so violent in the way it was done there
<wansti>        paroneayea: well cartoon as in "Looney Tunes" or cartoon as in "South Park"? it's a big difference
<paroneayea>    looney tunes, of course
<MatzeB>        hmm maybe something less violent would be good indeed...
<MatzeB>        maybe he just puts a spell on penny so that she moves towards him...
<en453> Would it be a bit like "alex the alligator"? (if you know it)
<MatzeB>        and then he sends a few monsters between him and penny...
<paroneayea>    okay.. pulls out a tiny wand, looks at it, pulls out a much bigger wand
<wansti>        yeah, smashing someone witha a hammer is probably too much anyway...
<wansti>        paroneayea: much better
<paroneayea>    and uses that to put him asleep
<MatzeB>        en453: in alex the allegator it's a helicopter...
<paroneayea>    MatzeB: sounds like the original supertux
<Johnlein>      how about throwing a net on tux
<MatzeB>        well the helicopter would be strange in supertux world
<wansti>        MatzeB: i agree
<paroneayea>    if he just throws a net, that doesn't work too well
<paroneayea>    because tux needs to be cursed
<paroneayea>    so there has to be magic anyway
<paroneayea>    I don't see why a wand doesn't work
<paroneayea>    or magic staff, or something
<MatzeB>        a wand is good
<MatzeB>        just not smash it on tux head :)
<wansti>        i like the wand, too
<Johnlein>      Cursing him so he cant scroll backwards is rather artificial I think.
<wansti>        i think we don't even need to explain the backscrolling thing in the story
<wansti>        explaining game features with the story (like time limit etc) never works well
<sik0fewl>      wansti: I like paroneayea's way of explaining it
<wansti>        sik0fewl: but why explain it at all?
<en453> wansti, prince of persia explains the time limit pretty well with his story
<Johnlein>      Explaining a feature in the story becomes problematic when the feature changes.
<wansti>        en453: true, but i think it's unnecessary
<Johnlein>      and supertux is still in flux
<TuxthePenguin> look maybe he cant backscroll for a reason like fire is heading towards him that way
<en453> Yeah, fire!
<paroneayea>    :\  no, that would make it impossible to revisit levels
<TuxthePenguin> true
<wansti>        how about we simply enable backscrolling for world1?
<wansti>        i'll go through the levels again to make sure it'll work with the design
<wansti>        then it's no problem
<sik0fewl>      wansti: reason for explanation is because it later levels we are allowed to scroll backwards
<Johnlein>      that is sane
<sik0fewl>      and yeah, I'm fine with enabling backscrolling for world 1
<sik0fewl>      I don't think it will be a problem
<sik0fewl>      (unlike flapping)
<TuxthePenguin> parneayea: i was just thinking aloud :P
<wansti>        how about the others? agreed with backscrolling world1?
<MatzeB>        sure I thought we'd do that anyway
<paroneayea>    the only objection I'd have
<grumbel>       I would like to keep it non-backscrolling
<wansti>        MatzeB: me, too... but apparently, not everyone did
<paroneayea>    is that it would make things more interesting to "get the ability" to scroll backwards after world
<paroneayea>    provide more variation
<wansti>        paroneayea: i don't like it
<wansti>        paroneayea: it's too artificial to be an ability
<paroneayea>    *shrug* I'm not too opinionated on it
<Johnlein>      grumble: why?
<grumbel>       Johnlein: because it would allow us to stay true with the history of the game
<grumbel>       and I think it would be a funny thing
<wansti>        grumbel: what do you mean by "history"?
<grumbel>       wansti: milestone2 could attach directly to milestone1, without altering it
<wansti>        grumbel: i thought we'd alter it anyway
<grumbel>       wansti: ever played mario&luigi or papermario?
<wansti>        we already did, by adding four more rows of tiles to every map
<wansti>        grumbel: nope
<Johnlein>      But if you leave all levels the way they are when new features get heaped on, each level will feel
                somewhat incongruent.
<grumbel>       wansti: it has tons of funny references to the older mario games
<wansti>        grumbel: which console?
<grumbel>       wansti: GBA (Mario&Luigi), N64 (PaperMario) or Gamecube (PaperMario2)
<wansti>        grumbel: i don't own any of these, unfortunately
<TuxthePenguin> I got an N64 from a charity shop for £10
<MatzeB>        somehow I don't think it's worth keeping the non-backscrolling mode...
<paroneayea>    grumbel: so your reason for maitaining the non-backscrolling is nonstalgia's sake?
<wansti>        grumbel: i was planning on adding some of the new features of ms2 to the old levels, too
<en453> I join your opinion, MatzeB
<wansti>        like, better secrets
<grumbel>       paroneayea: mostly
<TuxthePenguin> forget nostalgia
<TuxthePenguin> get with the times :p
<MatzeB>        nah nothing bad with references in general...
<TuxthePenguin> nope
<MatzeB>        but this non-backscrolling is just annoying IMO
<TuxthePenguin> perhaps
<TuxthePenguin> it can bea feature
<Johnlein>      MatzeB: I second that
<TuxthePenguin> a user chooses
<paroneayea>    well, part of the appeal of ST milestone one was that it was very SMB 1 like
<TuxthePenguin> to have
<en453> What about up-down scrolling :?
<TuxthePenguin> so a checkbox: backscrolling []
<paroneayea>    but I'm playing CVS right now
<MatzeB>        en453: try out cvs
<paroneayea>    and world one seems fine with backscrolling
<wansti>        paroneayea: except for some very few spots, which need fixing
<wansti>        but it's just minor things
<paroneayea>    I hate that I can't grab iceblocks though
<TuxthePenguin> i still think the game should have some funny "cheat" some kind of Easter Egg ;)
<en453> It's nearly midnight here, gotta go sleep soon (yawn)
<TuxthePenguin> speaking of grabbing iceblocks what about mr bombs?
<TuxthePenguin> pick up mr bomb throw and blow up enemies
<TuxthePenguin> to slow
<TuxthePenguin> and you blow up yourself
<MatzeB>        yep I also feel that we should end this meeting soon...
<wansti>        TuxthePenguin: check out the "easter egg test" level
<wansti>        :)
<paroneayea>    on that note...
<paroneayea>    it would be good if fireballs blew up mr bombs
<paroneayea>    but I agree.. this meeting should probably end
<MatzeB>        paroneayea: this fireball idea is nice, just put in on the TODO
<TuxthePenguin> been a nice meeting
<TuxthePenguin> no buiscuits though
<sik0fewl>      I think the meetings already over :)
<MatzeB>        well if noone else has an important topic, then I'd say we cut it here...
<TuxthePenguin> murp murp
<wansti>        alright
<TuxthePenguin> ;P